<!--QuoteBegin--Ulatoh+Aug 23 2003, 06:15 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ulatoh @ Aug 23 2003, 06:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Each persons sin affects other people, there is not a single sin that does not affect other people, and thats why sins are bad, because no matter which sin you pick, your evilness will affect other people. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Interesting definition of sins... it is quite easy to find nuisance of one's sins to others :
1) Greed - Excess use of private property , denying access to common goods. 2) Gluttony - Selfish overconsumption of food , which is an insult to people suffering from hunger. 3) Sloth - Letting the others work for you , refusing to contribute. Parasitic life. 4) Wrath - Violence , deliberately harming people. 5) Lust - Lubricity , not considering sexual partners as human beings first. 6) Envy - Wanting other's property/situation for little reason , being jealous and acting accordingly. 7) Pride - lacking any kind of consideration for others , estimating their lives unsignificant compared to the allmighty self.
Acting selfish in any way is sinning...
This definition also lets us dismiss "newer" sins , like , say , masturbation (which doesn't affect others in any way) Furthermore , being atheist is not sinfull as long as your behavior isn't worse than a believer's...
What a great discussion! I personally believe that everyone that posts here in this topic has a profound willingness to know what is unknown.
So far the arguements that have sprung up in the topic have ranged from, "God gave us a freedom of choice,""Humans created God,""The universe had to be created by God," and many others. What point are we gathering to? Can we ever come to a conclusion to this never-debatable discussion? Probably not, maybe when humanity reaches complete thought, but no, most likely not.
In my opinion, life is a methodical process of metabolism. God always existed and humans created religion to explain his existence and whatnot. But do you know what attracts me to God? Well, in this world people are attracted to greed, money, power, lust, and beauty, the very things that the media put out and what people therefore strive towards. But there are principles in the bible that catch my eye. The idea that serving for others and not serving yourself, the idea of the undying grace of Jesus, and the idea that God first loved us, are what attract me to God.
A lot of people have no belief in God and live there lives without ethereal meaning; they live according to our society's "rules," (whatever that means). Many, in times of trouble turn to 1-800 phone lines, suicidal behavior, and even drugs, sex, and alchohol. But me...Well I have God watching over my shoulder and I know he is. Some things can only be experienced and faith is what keeps me to God. Sometimes I doubt him, mostly when he never answers me and seems to be non-existant. But then I realize that "Miracles don't produce faith, faith alone produces miracles." I understand that if God showed me a divine miracle, I probably would ask for more.
But am I really happy? No. Why? Because I have obsticales to conquer, but I feed off the notion, which I have mentioned above. In essence, what nem said, that we believe in God, because we have no reason to explain our existence and that we need something to cling on to, is kind of true. What better explanation than that eh? But it's ironic, how do we explain our existence, the beginning of the universe, and our cause with science? That God was here first cannot be explained. It is like trying to crack a rock in half with one finger, while reading DOS for dummies to a child in a singing voice. Scientifically, most things can be explained by rational, mathematical formula, but it cannot explain the very questions imbedded within our human nature. I honestly don't believe that all of this was made from nothing, it is so clear that there is design and therefore a creator. But until we understand the universe in full thought aka "unified theory," what I said doesn't mean nada.
EDIT: <!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Aug 23 2003, 12:57 AM --></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Aug 23 2003, 12:57 AM )</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I turned away from it because I didn't believe in god. I turned away because the idea of a higher power did not seem logical to me<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What is logical? IMO, nothing seems logical yet.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Well, the thing to really subdivide the various viewpoints is....
A lot of the people who say they do not believe in 'God' in fact are saying they do not believe in religion. Which is an entirely different thing. Religion is primarily a population control tool, such as "Do this, or you're going to suffer later." but presented in a way where there is a punishment, but the driving force is the reward "Do this, and something good will happen later."
You can have faith in a 'God' without religion. I think that's very muddled in some of the viewpoints.
1) Greed - Excess use of private property , denying access to common goods. 2) Gluttony - Selfish overconsumption of food , which is an insult to people suffering from hunger. 3) Sloth - Letting the others work for you , refusing to contribute. Parasitic life. 4) Wrath - Violence , deliberately harming people. 5) Lust - Lubricity , not considering sexual partners as human beings first. 6) Envy - Wanting other's property/situation for little reason , being jealous and acting accordingly. 7) Pride - lacking any kind of consideration for others , estimating their lives unsignificant compared to the allmighty self.
Acting selfish in any way is sinning...
This definition also lets us dismiss "newer" sins , like , say , masturbation (which doesn't affect others in any way) Furthermore , being atheist is not sinfull as long as your behavior isn't worse than a believer's... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Firstly, whether or not masturbation is a sin is a doctrinal question, im not sure which groups think it is, Probabbly the Catholic church, I know Baptists dont like it, but i dont know if its considered a <u>sin</u>
But Not believing in god is a sin <u>against</u> God, thats why its the only one you go to hell for... Commit any one of the sins you just named, and you still belive in God an Jesus, and you ask for forgiveness, your still getting into heaven
<!--QuoteBegin--Shockwave+Aug 23 2003, 03:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ Aug 23 2003, 03:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, the thing to really subdivide the various viewpoints is....
A lot of the people who say they do not believe in 'God' in fact are saying they do not believe in religion. Which is an entirely different thing. Religion is primarily a population control tool, such as "Do this, or you're going to suffer later." but presented in a way where there is a punishment, but the driving force is the reward "Do this, and something good will happen later."
You can have faith in a 'God' without religion. I think that's very muddled in some of the viewpoints. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Agnosticism.
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Aug 23 2003, 01:06 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Aug 23 2003, 01:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> [QUOTE=Dread,Aug 22 2003, 05:37 PM] [QUOTE=Legionnaired,Aug 22 2003, 10:50 PM] I've asked him for forgiveness, for his sins to apply to me, and admitted I've done wrong, will do wrong, and can't ever get into heaven on my own. [/QUOTE] Nice reply Legionnaired.
But let me just ask one question. Can I get to heaven? According to your personal belief of course. I mean is it my personal fault that I don't believe in god? Is it s sum of many factors, pre-determined or because I'm just evil in my soul? How can god give us the option to choose or not to choose to believe in him? I think no one can blame me for not believing because it's very much dependant on your state of mind at some specific moment. If god wants everyone to be happy and believe in him, why won't he give solid proof to the non-believers of 21st century? Everyone would believe and be just happy after that. Why he lets us live in uncertainty? How can I know for sure that which God I should pray because if I draw the wrong card, I'm going to hell, unless everyone gets to heaven.
How can you be sure that you are worshipping the right god? If we are to believe the Bible, the very foundation of christian religion, you will go to hell if you praise the wrong god but the same thing is said pretty much in every holy book.
Lots of questions there. [/QUOTE] You as Dread, or you as the non-believer?
I've been in places before where I couldn't believe at all that there was that god, where it was impossible, and that I was on my own. Even after I did accept Christ into me heart, it happens, we're human, we doubt things.
I can't believe that a benevolent God would expect us to find him blindly. It's simply unjust. Which is where Romans 1:20 comes into play.
[QUOTE=Romans 1:20] For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.[/QUOTE]
Imagine yourself walking the park, and finding a dropped watch. You would, naturally, assume that someone dropped it. Sure, all of the elements included in that watch are in the Earth, the iron in the steel, the quartz inside... but you wouldn't assume that it simply came together.
By the laws of physics, matter coming into existance jsut does not happen. Can not happen. Is impossible. Perhaps there is another process there that we do not know of? perhaps another string of reactions involving the smallest building blocks of the universe. Perhaps. However, there comes a point, where as impossible as it is to understand, we come to a point where it is just as impossible to even observe those forces at work, be it of God, or of a natually occuring process.
So what do we have to go on? We know that 2000 years ago, a man named Jesus did walk the earth, and did claim to be the son of God, and did die crucified for the crime of blasphemy. I don't think you'll find very many historians that will deny that much. The only real valid debate is, was he the divine? the son of the God of the Israelites.
For that, there's a book written by Lee Strobel, a law student who started a case to refute Christ, but ended up becoming a Christian because of his studies. Anyway, It's called <a href='http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0310209307/qid%3D1052237404/sr%3D1-1/ref%3Dsr%5F1%5F3%5F1/104-9328563-4499922' target='_blank'><u>The Case For Christ</u></a>, and it's a good read, I highly recomend it.
My acceptance of Christ was based on more emotional conclusions that intellectual ones, to be perfectly honest, but that's a story for another time.
If you're thinking about this, and it's really impacting you, really making you think, I really do suggest reading through a gospel, Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John, and Romans. Really read through it, rip it apart, look at each verse.
The gospels are, of course, the story of Christ's life, and what that's all about, and Romans is Paul's stpe by step of why Christ was important, how it's applicable, and what we can do about it. I try to read them every so often, just to get myself re-centered on what's important in my life. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You do make a point, matter in nature <u>does</u> eventually reach a state of chaos, from order to chaos, and the only thing that changes that order, is living things which gather up the matter, and reorganize it...
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Aug 23 2003, 12:57 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Aug 23 2003, 12:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->EDIT: Ryo: I urge you to check out a non-denominational Christian church, one that focuses on Christ, not the rituals of Catholicism. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok. I'll let that one slide. But don't you ever make such a suggestion ever again <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> People who say things like that arent trying to cram anything down your throat, if they belive what they say they do, they think your goin to hell for eternity, and dont want you to.
That said, what you do is your own business, and no matter how much people "care" they shouldnt try to mke you do something you dont want to.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can have faith in a 'God' without religion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But what kind of God will that be?
Thing is, without the word of God passed down through the ages, what can you know about Him? What is He like? And what does He expect of you?
Individualized faith alone cannot answer these paramount questions. It can lead to obscure pantheism or some crude form of deism, but that's much less than organized religions with a well-developed theology and a moral code have to offer.
The_Real_QuasarHas the I.Q. of 12,000 P.E. TeachersJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 9998Members
I'd like to express my theory here, and every single religious person on the forums is going to yell at me. I don't care. My theory is this: All religion comes from evolution. We have evolved to an amazing level of intelligence (including all the nub comms) and our intelligence has made us think a lot. Think about what happens after death. Back when this intelligence dawned, we had no scientific equipment. So naturally, we turned to "gods", powerful beings that created us, taught us how to live, and took us to a better place when we died. But people started seeing holes in this theory: What is the point of living at all when there's a better place at the end of it all? But this was explained as a kind of "reward scheme", being that if you lived a good life, you would be rewarded. This seemed to make everyone happy. So that is my theory. But what about my earlier belief in "Something"? Well, although it is possible that we are simply a freak of nature, and that nature itself is a freak of nature, but that seems very ILLOGICAL to me. Before I end this post and accept the flames, I'd just like to note that I have read a book with some very compelling evidence that Jesus was an alien, and all the major ancient religions are based around aliens. Look at the <forgot the name> religion, the one that drew all the lines in the desert. From the ground, those lines are meaningless, but from the air, they form images such as a short man-shaped thing with a large head and big eyes, the stereotypical image of an "alien". Is it possible that that stereotype actually came from REAL aliens, the basis of religion? It is logical that, back in that time, advanced alien technology would seem like a miracle... Sorry if I've unsettled any religios people around here, but these are my theories and I need to share them.
Whoever is unsettled by Erich von Däniken's little aliens can't have been very religious in the first place... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Re: the epistemology of science, raised by Wheee a few pages ago, I just found an interesting little article I'd like to share:
<!--QuoteBegin--Ulatoh+Aug 23 2003, 05:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ulatoh @ Aug 23 2003, 05:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Not believing in god is a sin <u>against</u> God, thats why its the only one you go to hell for... Commit any one of the sins you just named, and you still belive in God an Jesus, and you ask for forgiveness, your still getting into heaven <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is puzzling... What makes an atheist dedicating his life to help others worse than a filthy brute converted to christianity in extremis ?
<!--QuoteBegin--Twex+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Individualized faith alone cannot answer these paramount questions. It can lead to obscure pantheism or some crude form of deism, but that's much less than organized religions with a well-developed theology and a moral code have to offer. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I challenge you to point out what good organized religions brought to humankind during theses first two millenia... countless generations had a harsher life because of religion. It proved to be an obstacle to progress and changes in history , and the moral codes you're speaking about froze the people's lifestyles for way too long. Monotheist religions did nothing for gender equality , in fact they reinforced the patriarchate system. Religion brought stability to humankind , but not happyness.
Individualized faith may seem to be vain , but at least it doesn't oppress others.
Profound, and quite accurate: the world remains a mysterious place. But I'll try and explain. For my mind, it was easier to think of a chemical reaction starting the universe than to believe that there was some kind of divine force. The catch is of course that the two both require articles of faith: the differance being that science strives for facts to support such faith, whilst religion instead says that faith does not require proof, and to want proof is in fact not to have faith. I found the scientific answer to be not only more plausable, but the only real choice. I can't blindly accept something as the truth without having proof. Now if god appeared before me right now and said "Ryo! I am God! Look, a burning bush!" you could dress me in robes and call me converted. I need facts, evidence to believe in something. Science, whilst not having all those facts yet, strives to find them, and continues to find them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->People who say things like that arent trying to cram anything down your throat, if they belive what they say they do, they think your goin to hell for eternity, and dont want you to. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did come across a bit strong, and I apologise. But appreciate that I've had such requests to rejoin the "true faith" cramed down my throat before, and hence I tend to react strongly to people trying to convert me. Force of habit I guess <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I challenge you to point out what good organized religions brought to humankind during theses first two millenia... countless generations had a harsher life because of religion. It proved to be an obstacle to progress and changes in history , and the moral codes you're speaking about froze the people's lifestyles for way too long. Monotheist religions did nothing for gender equality , in fact they reinforced the patriarchate system. Religion brought stability to humankind , but not happyness. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, it's not all bad, but there is a lot of suffering and ignorance that was perpetuated by religion up to and including the present day. The ideals that a belief system is founded upon are sometimes very good, the problem is that once you turn into a religion you get a heirachy, leadership and corruption. Churches or mosques or Jewish temples become instead of places of love and understanding, bastions of hatred and ignorance. Religions become corrupted by the very people running them, seduced by power, money and greed. Look at Christianity: it starts off with "love thy neighbour", "turn the other cheek", and ends up spliting into warring factions before actively embracing violence and warfare in the form of the Crusades. The apostles of Jesus were simple men and women with little money; turn the clock forwards a few hundred years and immensely wealthy patriaches and popes are running the show, decked out in the finest clothes and owners of vast tracts of Europe's best land. Mohummud preached words of peace, yet his followers ended up conquoring half the Eurasian landmass, and the kaliphs became corrupt with money and power.
Yet does religion bring happiness? There's a lot of truth in the old saying "ignorance is bliss". For many people, and this remains very true today, simply accepting the teachings of a religion is a tremendous burden lifted from their shoulders and the belief that there is something more than this life provides millions with joy and cheer. As an atheist I know just how hard it can be to accept my own beliefs that there is nothing else, that no-one is watching and once I die that will be it, game over. It's tough to burden one's self with such thoughts, and so much easier to let an organisation do them for you. So I think that the world's religions, whilst they have a lot to answer for in terms of wars, hatred, violence, the supression of education and learning, constant dogma and corruption they have made many people happier with their lives. Does that balance the ills of the world's religions? That, I believe, is up to the individual.
The only reason I don't buy into the religion thing is I don't like my life being defined by someone else.
I like to judge "right" or "wrong" on my own and so far, I think that I've lead a reasonable life. Just because someone else defines something as a sin doesn't mean that it is going to come off that way to me. I don't think I'll believe in the fact that I'm going to hell for sinning until God himself flies down out of the sky on his magical carpet and pimp-slaps me back into living the right way.
<!--QuoteBegin--The Real Quasar+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The Real Quasar)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My theory is this: All religion comes from evolution. We have evolved to an amazing level of intelligence (including all the nub comms) and our intelligence has made us think a lot. Think about what happens after death. Back when this intelligence dawned, we had no scientific equipment. So naturally, we turned to "gods", powerful beings that created us, taught us how to live, and took us to a better place when we died. But people started seeing holes in this theory: What is the point of living at all when there's a better place at the end of it all? But this was explained as a kind of "reward scheme", being that if you lived a good life, you would be rewarded. This seemed to make everyone happy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Assuming evolution actually did take place, the progression of intellignece wasn't a sudden "OMG LEWK I R SMRT!" , There was a rather large chunk of time between Neanderthals and Cro Magnon man, and they didn't suddenly find a generation of self-aware people.
Your theory seems to revolve around the fact that early man was scared utterly crap-less, and thus made up Gods for comfort. However, stable tribes of roving bands were, probably, the norm, and thus, they defended themselves nicely from wild animals and the like.
Besides, what is the likelyhood that a people that had just recently discovered fire would have the mental capacity to make up divine beings?
Now, assume that, say, Judaism was divinely inspired. Here we have a race of people, living faithfully, for thousands of years, WIHTOUT that be-good-and-get-to-heaven system. The Jews were, and still are, God's chosen people, and were garunteed protection and blessing from God.
The whole reward scheme you speak of didn't actually start until 300 years AFTER Christ, during the rise of the Catholic church. The early Christian churchs that Paul, Barnabass, Peter and John established through Acts, all taught the kind of grace-based salvation that Jesus preached. Paul even severely rebuked a Church that strayed from this teaching in Galatians. Even the first 10 verses show how disturbed Paul was by the corruption of the Gospel of Christ.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Before I end this post and accept the flames, I'd just like to note that I have read a book with some very compelling evidence that Jesus was an alien, and all the major ancient religions are based around aliens. Look at the <forgot the name> religion, the one that drew all the lines in the desert. From the ground, those lines are meaningless, but from the air, they form images such as a short man-shaped thing with a large head and big eyes, the stereotypical image of an "alien". Is it possible that that stereotype actually came from REAL aliens, the basis of religion? It is logical that, back in that time, advanced alien technology would seem like a miracle...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds fun. Link me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I challenge you to point out what good organized religions brought to humankind during theses first two millenia... countless generations had a harsher life because of religion. It proved to be an obstacle to progress and changes in history , and the moral codes you're speaking about froze the people's lifestyles for way too long. Monotheist religions did nothing for gender equality , in fact they reinforced the patriarchate system. Religion brought stability to humankind , but not happyness.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll give you that one. Being told you had to buy up indulgences certainly couldn't have helped people.
But was the corruption, the pain, from man, or from God? Say from man, and you admit that it was something that people corrupted. Say from God, an I'll cite 10 examples, both form the Bible and from my own life, where God has enhanced people's lives, not destroyed them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yet does religion bring happiness? There's a lot of truth in the old saying "ignorance is bliss". For many people, and this remains very true today, simply accepting the teachings of a religion is a tremendous burden lifted from their shoulders and the belief that there is something more than this life provides millions with joy and cheer. As an atheist I know just how hard it can be to accept my own beliefs that there is nothing else, that no-one is watching and once I die that will be it, game over. It's tough to burden one's self with such thoughts, and so much easier to let an organisation do them for you. So I think that the world's religions, whilst they have a lot to answer for in terms of wars, hatred, violence, the supression of education and learning, constant dogma and corruption they have made many people happier with their lives. Does that balance the ills of the world's religions? That, I believe, is up to the individual. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahh, so you're going with, I think Stalin, who called religion an opiate?
IF religion was something you held onto because it made you feel better, why would people die for it? Why would people not renouce their faith before being burned at the stake, or before being nailed to a cross? I wouldn't ever stick by, say NS before death, or anything else save things that really, truely matter in the grand scheme of things. Like my family, or my friends, or my God.
Many, many atrocities have been committed in the name of God, I wont, and can't deny that. But find a verse where Jesus tells us those should be committed, and I'll renounce my faith right here.
<!--QuoteBegin--Twex+Aug 23 2003, 10:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex @ Aug 23 2003, 10:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can have faith in a 'God' without religion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But what kind of God will that be?
Thing is, without the word of God passed down through the ages, what can you know about Him? What is He like? And what does He expect of you?
Individualized faith alone cannot answer these paramount questions. It can lead to obscure pantheism or some crude form of deism, but that's much less than organized religions with a well-developed theology and a moral code have to offer. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> God is meant to be infinite right ? So then why must we rely on some ancient texts that have undergone who knows how much editing and translation over time for all the answers ?
I'm not meaning this to be sarcastic in any way. I'm serious when I say 'why can't an individual rediscover God if "he" is out there to be found' ? Surely any omnipotent figure wouldn't rely on one particular text that may or may not find its way into your hands to be the only way that you can know anything about "him" ?
Individualized faith to my mind represents someone making the effort to explore and understand 'God' on a personal level. Organized religions have been notoriously corrupt over the ages e.g. paying money for the forgiveness of 'sins'. Even today we have all this nasty business about child-molestation in the churches.
LOOK, theres always gonna be religious priks who say "god exists!" and cant be convinced otherwise,and theres always gonna be a prik who start these arguments agaisnt god. (personally i dont beleive in god) but one fact stays for SURE
and this fact is:
"most of the wars throughout human life were CAUSED by some kind of <u>religious</u> conflict/disagreement"
therefore, by that statement, I can safely say that religion CANT be a good thing if it started most of our wars
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionaired+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionaired)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ahh, so you're going with, I think Stalin, who called religion an opiate?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is from Lenin... for Marx's sake <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Though the corruption found in any religion comes from the man obviously , the fact that it was "sacred" considerably diminished resistance against corrupted ideals. Religion is dangerous because the Church's hierarchy claim they aknowledge the utopic rules they got from God and apply them , therefore questionning their authority is blasphemy.
God is kept hostage by priests.
Religion wars were incredibly violent , but also vain since no ideology or faith can keep its purity throughout centuries.
The source of this corruption , what let zealots commit abominations is DoubleThinking. No end justifies barbaric means , slaughtering people to make sure they aknowledge the rule "thou shallst not kill" makes no sense at all. Jesus gave the exemple of tolerance towards a prostitute being stoned by believers , yet irish churches were still recently imprisonning young women for years just because they had a natural child , and use all this time for "expiation" ... though they never caused harm to anyone.
People always manage to live in violation of their most sacred principles , using any kind of excuse.
A lot of this stuff is being recycled and I would suggest those that haven't read the whole topic from one end to the other to do that before asking and bringing up the same type of questions that have been argued already, unless there is something new to add. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Ulatoh+Aug 23 2003, 10:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ulatoh @ Aug 23 2003, 10:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But Not believing in god is a sin against God, thats why its the only one you go to hell for... Commit any one of the sins you just named, and you still belive in God an Jesus, and you ask for forgiveness, your still getting into heaven<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> True, but it isn't that simple. If I were to say to myself, "Why go through all the troubles of believing in God now, when you can ask Jesus as your savior at an older age?" There would be a problem, nobody knows the day we die, it could be tommorow or thirty years from now. I believe unless your truly repentful, you will not get into heaven. Maybe there are different levels of the after life, like a purgatory or limbo. But in "essence," what you said is true.
(Luke 9:23-25 NIV) Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. {24} For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it. {25} What good is it if a man gains the whole world and loses his own soul? Here is another reference to the same thing: (Luke 14:27 NIV) And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Aug 23 2003, 11:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Aug 23 2003, 11:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can't blindly accept something as the truth without having proof. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If I gave you some photos of Jesus and maybe a twelve page document with scientific analysis proving his existence, which was authenticated by top scholars, I think you would have a harder time believing in the evidence itself. You would probably ask for more, which is of course normal, because I would. God is like the wind, you can't see him, but you can feel him. There are some bible verses that explain this better than I could, but I can't seem to find them anywhere. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
EDIT:
<!--QuoteBegin--Stakhanov+Aug 23 2003, 03:54 PM --></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stakhanov @ Aug 23 2003, 03:54 PM )</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is from Lenin... for Marx's sake?
Though the corruption found in any religion comes from the man obviously , the fact that it was "sacred" considerably diminished resistance against corrupted ideals. Religion is dangerous because the Church's hierarchy claim they aknowledge the utopic rules they got from God and apply them , therefore questionning their authority is blasphemy.
God is kept hostage by priests.
Religion wars were incredibly violent , but also vain since no ideology or faith can keep its purity throughout centuries.
The source of this corruption , what let zealots commit abominations is DoubleThinking. No end justifies barbaric means , slaughtering people to make sure they aknowledge the rule "thou shallst not kill" makes no sense at all. Jesus gave the exemple of tolerance towards a prostitute being stoned by believers , yet irish churches were still recently imprisonning young women for years just because they had a natural child , and use all this time for "expiation" ... though they never caused harm to anyone.
People always manage to live in violation of their most sacred principles , using any kind of excuse.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, the Kingdom of God and Man get confused, which I will explain later on if you want. A lot of what happens and happened has no justification, so bringing God and religion into it is like what he said, double thinking.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So then why must we rely on some ancient texts that have undergone who knows how much editing and translation over time for all the answers ?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You often hear how corrupted the Scripture supposedly has become over the centuries, but actually it has been copied so often that it's the oldest, most well-preserved document we know. The three irresolvable corruptions we know of all involve numbers (they're easy to confuse in Hebrew): The exact number of returning exiles, Jehoiachin's age when he became king, and the height of the pillars of Solomon's temple. All in the OT, and not exactly cornerstones of faith.
There are indeed many disagreements about certain translations. But they're all well documented, and the original texts, in Hebrew and Koine Greek, are still there! Whoever is so inclined can translate them again. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Religion is dangerous because the Church's hierarchy claim they aknowledge the utopic rules they got from God and apply them , therefore questionning their authority is blasphemy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The Dark Ages are over, you know. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Back then, the clergy were pretty much the only ones who could read at all. It's not very surprising that they held the monopoly for exegesis, is it?
But now you're free to question and openly criticize any Bishop you want. You can do that because the Church has preserved both the Scripture itself and tons of secondary literature for your enjoyment and scrutiny. That's a complexity "ego-religions" can't attain. A single guy starting from scratch simply cannot create a deep, coherent, beautiful web of the most intriguing thoughts, such as true organized religions have.
<!--QuoteBegin--Twex+Aug 23 2003, 04:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex @ Aug 23 2003, 04:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So then why must we rely on some ancient texts that have undergone who knows how much editing and translation over time for all the answers ?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You often hear how corrupted the Scripture supposedly has become over the centuries, but actually it has been copied so often that it's the oldest, most well-preserved document we know. The three irresolvable corruptions we know of all involve numbers (they're easy to confuse in Hebrew): The exact number of returning exiles, Jehoiachin's age when he became king, and the height of the pillars of Solomon's temple. All in the OT, and not exactly cornerstones of faith.
There are indeed many disagreements about certain translations. But they're all well documented, and the original texts, in Hebrew and Koine Greek, are still there! Whoever is so inclined can translate them again. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem comes in when people say "but the bible _clearly_ states that x is such".
Especially with issues like homosexuality. Little differences in translation can have enormous ramifications here.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->LOOK, theres always gonna be religious priks who say "god exists!" and cant be convinced otherwise,and theres always gonna be a prik who start these arguments agaisnt god. (personally i dont beleive in god) but one fact stays for SURE
and this fact is:
"most of the wars throughout human life were CAUSED by some kind of religious conflict/disagreement"
therefore, by that statement, I can safely say that religion CANT be a good thing if it started most of our wars <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, calling people "religious priks" isn't a good way to win a debate. Especially when you've got someone with broadband, a short fuse, and nothing better to do, as you'll soon see <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"most of the wars throughout human life were CAUSED by some kind of religious conflict/disagreement"
therefore, by that statement, I can safely say that religion CANT be a good thing if it started most of our wars <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, I'm going to take you up on that one. First of all, backing up your point about the majority of wars being caused by religion. I found a site giving a nice timeline of most of the wars humanity has gone through, since 30th Century BC <a href='http://www.warscholar.com/Timeline.html#Middle%20Ages' target='_blank'>Here</a>.
Go through from 1st Century AD to present, and classify every military action you see there into led by church or led by state.
Then, look at all those led by Church, and find what justification was given by the Bible for those actions. THEN you can come back here and shoot your mouth off about us "religious priks"
Oh by the way. More people are alive now then have ever died, due to the exponentiality of population growth. As I hear, this mark has been surpassed jsut recently, so lets say that about 5.8 billion people have ever died.
<a href='http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat8.htm' target='_blank'>(source)</a> If you'll look on that site, you'll see that most of the estimated statistics given total about 200 Million people dying in warfare-related conditions.
Due to the fact that the 20th century has been the most populus of the world's history, I'm going to use that as our source. Please bear with me.
Lets look at all the major genocides of the 20th century, and the wars involved with each.
WW2 = 50,000,000 dead. Mao Zedong = 40,000,000 dead. Stalin = 20,000,000 Dead. WW1 = 15,000,000 dead.
In all, that's 125,000,000 deaths. out of that 200 million mentioned earlyer, that's 62.5% of the 20th century's deaths, caused by: a) Mass murderers. b) Networks of "OMG SECKRAT ALLIANCE!"
Guess what. That's the majority of deaths from NON-religious causes.
Oh, and guess what. According to the World Christian Encyclopedia, cited from by both the Brittanica and the World Almanac, there's been a total of 70 Million Christian Martyrs. 45 Million of them in the 20th century.
31 Million of those from Aetheists.
Guess how many killings were done in the name of Christ? On other Christians?
9 Million. So much for your "religion has caused the most deaths/wars" argument. IF anything, it sounds like Christians are the ones being persecuted the most, not the ones dishing it out. Gee, I wonder where I have heard that before?
2 Timothy 3:12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,
<!--QuoteBegin--[strange]pIMPIN+Aug 22 2003, 01:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([strange]pIMPIN @ Aug 22 2003, 01:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> do you really believe in talking burning bushes or reincarnation of a human being or stone plates with words scratched in it, which suddelny appeared on a hill, or or or or
It's called faith. Just think of the first time you stopped at a stop sign and another car was comming up behind you. Did you jump the stopsign because their was a car comming up behind you, and you might get hit? No. You took it on faith that they would stop, like they were supposed to.
God told us that if we belive his son, Jesus Christ, is the son of God, and that he was the only son of God, and God was the only God, then we would have life eternal in heaven. I trust him, just like you trust the guy to stop behind you at a stop light. The only difference is, God allways has good brakes <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem comes in when people say "but the bible _clearly_ states that x is such".
Especially with issues like homosexuality. Little differences in translation can have enormous ramifications here. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree that such simple statements aren't adequate when translation and interpretation are contestable within the realm of reason. Any opinion hoping to hold water must be backed up by a more in-depth analysis of the issues at hand.
For example, any informed discussion about the morality of homosexuality must address the concerns <a href='http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/assault/bible/boswell.html' target='_blank'>Boswell</a> raised about "arsenokoitai", as well as their subsequent <a href='http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/greek/boswell.html' target='_blank'>refutations</a>.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ahh, so you're going with, I think Stalin, who called religion an opiate?
IF religion was something you held onto because it made you feel better, why would people die for it? Why would people not renouce their faith before being burned at the stake, or before being nailed to a cross? I wouldn't ever stick by, say NS before death, or anything else save things that really, truely matter in the grand scheme of things. Like my family, or my friends, or my God. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why do people die for governments? Why do people die for ideals such as socialism or Nazism? Belief takes many forms, and if someone belives in something strongly enough then they will be willing to die for it. I think that religion has made a lot of people happy, but that's not nessassarily why someone would die for it . Religion is a focus for belief just like any ideology or ideal, and you will always get people willing to die for a cause they believe in strongly enough. Dying for an ideology does not make it right, just or holy: it simply indicates that a person strongly believed in such a ideal.
And it was Lenin who said that religion is the opiate of the masses.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's called faith. Just think of the first time you stopped at a stop sign and another car was comming up behind you. Did you jump the stopsign because their was a car comming up behind you, and you might get hit? No. You took it on faith that they would stop, like they were supposed to.
God told us that if we belive his son, Jesus Christ, is the son of God, and that he was the only son of God, and God was the only God, then we would have life eternal in heaven. I trust him, just like you trust the guy to stop behind you at a stop light. The only difference is, God allways has good brakes <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You actually don't take it for granted that the guy behind you will stop; you should always be prepared to move forwards or sideways to avoid a possible collision. Check your rear-view mirror constantly. But yes, you do think that the person behind you will stop. But there are reasons for that, logical factual reasons:
1. It's not in the other car's intrests to hit you. That means damages, injury, insurance and possible sueing; in short far more trouble than compared to stoping your car instead.
2. It's illegal. Possible jail terms or fines for crashing your car into another. Possible suspension of license. Again, far more trouble than simply stopping.
Hence the driver of the first car is not banking on faith. He believes that the other driver has a vested intrest not to hit his car. But accidents do happen. That's why the driver in the 1st car keeps a close eye on the other car in case it per-chance doesn't stop.
Now what reasons do we have to trust God? For starters we have the interpretation of the words of a man dead 2,000 years. No book that is rewritten over and over again remains the same, not to mention the influence of the church upon the people who copied such texts. Secondly, we know from more reliable history records that there was a religious movement in Palistine during the Roman occupation, but this does not make such a movement right or correct. Thirdly we have no living person who can vouch for the divinity of one Jesus of Nazareth, nor do we have reliable records of his life or teachings.
When you're a historian like myself you have to take a lot of historical evidence with a large grain of salt: take for example the treaty between the Pharoah Ramses II and the King of Mesopotamia: each side talks of a battle where both sides apprently won an overwhelming victory. Both attribute this to the gods. Obviously both cannot be correct, and both have "sexed up" their accounts of the battle. Finding the truth amongst such documents can be hard, and it is no differant with religious texts. A historian cannot write down in a book that the Christian armies in the 1st Crusade won at the Battle of Jerusalam because god was with them and expect to be taken seriously. He/she could write that the belief that god was on their side helped the Christians win, but we can't attribute things to a higher power. Hence I look at the Bible and see a questionable historical source that much be taken with a grain of salt the size of Lot's wife <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Thus why it is not proof of anything: if I had in my possession a chronicle of the Roman Empire that had been copied and rewritten a hundred times from it's creation in 1 AD through to the present I would view it with just as much sceptisism.
Blinding accepting faith isn't something I can do. I can't trust some vague idea of a higher power because no proof exists to prove his/her/it's existance, and neither is there any reason why it should exist. I have reasons to believe the guy behind me is going to stop, but even then I still take precautions. I have no reason to believe that there ever was or is a god or that he had a son named Jesus Christ.
Both are good reads that more or less answer your questions.
You're right about the changes in scripture though. Both the NIV and the NASB seem to kind of try and dilute the power of the message. However, by combining three different translations, and the greek w/ a greek dictionary, you can almost always find the meaning as depicted by the author, simply by looking at context and how the original word is translated elsewhere in different versions.
As I see it, there are only two possible ways that we originated: either by chance/chaos, or by something that created us.
I can't find myself agreeing with the former simply because I honestly can't find anything created by "chance". The only complex things I can think of in nature that "just occur" (in this case, from something less complex becoming into something more complex) are: 1. Tornadoes and 2. Snowflake patterns
But just look at everything that surrounds you in the room you're currently in. Did any of those things just become what they are by a some simple mixing of substances? I can't find anything.
I can only conclude there is a higher power. As to what that power may be... well... I'm still trying to figure that out.
I used to be a christian(bapist), but I no longer am. I believe in god though. For me, losing my religion wasn't just some happy parting of ways where I realized I had outgrown it, and wished it well as we parted ways. No, it was more of a "curse you propaganda monster, you wasted my time and enslaved me for many years, but I have overcome you." type thing. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
This has given me a perspective that religion is not such an innocent thing that people use as a crutch. It wastes time, it causes grief, it sucks the enjoyment out of life, it gets in the way of everything. Not all religions are like this, but to me, traditional conservative chrisitianity is.
This is a paradoy site, but still it proves my point perfectly. Imagine living a life like this, when your enjoyment of life and your enlightenment is so restricted, yet you realize how low the chances of this religion truly being the correct way are(of course when your in this deep, you are convinced you have found the way). Why bother?
So suppose I suddenly find a religion that does not restrict me like Christianity did. Well the problem is that I am only a part of it because I like it's rules, so why waste my time at all? I don't want to bother with religion if I can't truly be in contact with god. And without brainwashing myself by being in to deep, I probably won't find god in X religion. I either find him on my own, or I never find him. So if I like certain sets of rules, I might as well follow philosphy, not religion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This has given me a perspective that religion is not such an innocent thing that people use as a crutch. It wastes time, it causes grief, it sucks the enjoyment out of life, it gets in the way of everything. Not all religions are like this, but to me, traditional conservative chrisitianity is. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally, I don't think it falls into either description. I know for me it's not a crutch. A crutch carries you, you're not supposed to have to bear a burden for it. Yet, that is exactly what Christ asks us to do.
Matthew 6:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
As for wasting time, causing greif, and sucking enjoyment out of life...
The work I do for Christ, if it wins people over for the Lord, then that's not a waste of time. That's an investment in people that lasts forever. I know that even if they were to die that night, that I would see them in heaven. That's not a waste of time, by any means.
Causing greif? How does it do that? By saying we should not do certain things? Things that in the end hurt us? I really truely, in my life, cannot think of anything more fullfilling and worthwhile than commiting my life to doing God's will. I know it sounds all brainwashed and fundamentalist, but it's true. What else can I do, what else can I invest my time into, that will truely last forever. Even if you don't believe in God, or any higher power, I think everyone can pretty much agree that the most worthwhile receptor of our love, of our eforts, is other people.
And, that's exactly where Christ tells us to direct our efforts.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't want to bother with religion if I can't truly be in contact with god. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm honestly not sure I know of another religion where a Diety encourages us to directly ask Him/Her/It for provision of our needs, and that actually allows and encourages us to directly converse with Him/Her/It. The concept of prayer is an amazing thing.
Comments
Interesting definition of sins... it is quite easy to find nuisance of one's sins to others :
1) Greed - Excess use of private property , denying access to common goods.
2) Gluttony - Selfish overconsumption of food , which is an insult to people suffering from hunger.
3) Sloth - Letting the others work for you , refusing to contribute. Parasitic life.
4) Wrath - Violence , deliberately harming people.
5) Lust - Lubricity , not considering sexual partners as human beings first.
6) Envy - Wanting other's property/situation for little reason , being jealous and acting accordingly.
7) Pride - lacking any kind of consideration for others , estimating their lives unsignificant compared to the allmighty self.
Acting selfish in any way is sinning...
This definition also lets us dismiss "newer" sins , like , say , masturbation (which doesn't affect others in any way)
Furthermore , being atheist is not sinfull as long as your behavior isn't worse than a believer's...
So far the arguements that have sprung up in the topic have ranged from, "God gave us a freedom of choice,""Humans created God,""The universe had to be created by God," and many others. What point are we gathering to? Can we ever come to a conclusion to this never-debatable discussion? Probably not, maybe when humanity reaches complete thought, but no, most likely not.
In my opinion, life is a methodical process of metabolism. God always existed and humans created religion to explain his existence and whatnot. But do you know what attracts me to God? Well, in this world people are attracted to greed, money, power, lust, and beauty, the very things that the media put out and what people therefore strive towards. But there are principles in the bible that catch my eye. The idea that serving for others and not serving yourself, the idea of the undying grace of Jesus, and the idea that God first loved us, are what attract me to God.
A lot of people have no belief in God and live there lives without ethereal meaning; they live according to our society's "rules," (whatever that means). Many, in times of trouble turn to 1-800 phone lines, suicidal behavior, and even drugs, sex, and alchohol. But me...Well I have God watching over my shoulder and I know he is. Some things can only be experienced and faith is what keeps me to God. Sometimes I doubt him, mostly when he never answers me and seems to be non-existant. But then I realize that "Miracles don't produce faith, faith alone produces miracles." I understand that if God showed me a divine miracle, I probably would ask for more.
But am I really happy? No. Why? Because I have obsticales to conquer, but I feed off the notion, which I have mentioned above. In essence, what nem said, that we believe in God, because we have no reason to explain our existence and that we need something to cling on to, is kind of true. What better explanation than that eh? But it's ironic, how do we explain our existence, the beginning of the universe, and our cause with science? That God was here first cannot be explained. It is like trying to crack a rock in half with one finger, while reading DOS for dummies to a child in a singing voice. Scientifically, most things can be explained by rational, mathematical formula, but it cannot explain the very questions imbedded within our human nature. I honestly don't believe that all of this was made from nothing, it is so clear that there is design and therefore a creator. But until we understand the universe in full thought aka "unified theory," what I said doesn't mean nada.
EDIT: <!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Aug 23 2003, 12:57 AM --></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Aug 23 2003, 12:57 AM )</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I turned away from it because I didn't believe in god. I turned away because the idea of a higher power did not seem logical to me<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is logical? IMO, nothing seems logical yet.
A lot of the people who say they do not believe in 'God' in fact are saying they do not believe in religion. Which is an entirely different thing. Religion is primarily a population control tool, such as "Do this, or you're going to suffer later." but presented in a way where there is a punishment, but the driving force is the reward "Do this, and something good will happen later."
You can have faith in a 'God' without religion. I think that's very muddled in some of the viewpoints.
1) Greed - Excess use of private property , denying access to common goods.
2) Gluttony - Selfish overconsumption of food , which is an insult to people suffering from hunger.
3) Sloth - Letting the others work for you , refusing to contribute. Parasitic life.
4) Wrath - Violence , deliberately harming people.
5) Lust - Lubricity , not considering sexual partners as human beings first.
6) Envy - Wanting other's property/situation for little reason , being jealous and acting accordingly.
7) Pride - lacking any kind of consideration for others , estimating their lives unsignificant compared to the allmighty self.
Acting selfish in any way is sinning...
This definition also lets us dismiss "newer" sins , like , say , masturbation (which doesn't affect others in any way)
Furthermore , being atheist is not sinfull as long as your behavior isn't worse than a believer's... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firstly, whether or not masturbation is a sin is a doctrinal question, im not sure which groups think it is, Probabbly the Catholic church, I know Baptists dont like it, but i dont know if its considered a <u>sin</u>
But Not believing in god is a sin <u>against</u> God, thats why its the only one you go to hell for... Commit any one of the sins you just named, and you still belive in God an Jesus, and you ask for forgiveness, your still getting into heaven
A lot of the people who say they do not believe in 'God' in fact are saying they do not believe in religion. Which is an entirely different thing. Religion is primarily a population control tool, such as "Do this, or you're going to suffer later." but presented in a way where there is a punishment, but the driving force is the reward "Do this, and something good will happen later."
You can have faith in a 'God' without religion. I think that's very muddled in some of the viewpoints. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agnosticism.
Nice reply Legionnaired.
But let me just ask one question. Can I get to heaven? According to your personal belief of course. I mean is it my personal fault that I don't believe in god? Is it s sum of many factors, pre-determined or because I'm just evil in my soul? How can god give us the option to choose or not to choose to believe in him? I think no one can blame me for not believing because it's very much dependant on your state of mind at some specific moment. If god wants everyone to be happy and believe in him, why won't he give solid proof to the non-believers of 21st century? Everyone would believe and be just happy after that. Why he lets us live in uncertainty? How can I know for sure that which God I should pray because if I draw the wrong card, I'm going to hell, unless everyone gets to heaven.
How can you be sure that you are worshipping the right god? If we are to believe the Bible, the very foundation of christian religion, you will go to hell if you praise the wrong god but the same thing is said pretty much in every holy book.
Lots of questions there. [/QUOTE]
You as Dread, or you as the non-believer?
I've been in places before where I couldn't believe at all that there was that god, where it was impossible, and that I was on my own. Even after I did accept Christ into me heart, it happens, we're human, we doubt things.
I can't believe that a benevolent God would expect us to find him blindly. It's simply unjust. Which is where Romans 1:20 comes into play.
[QUOTE=Romans 1:20] For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.[/QUOTE]
Imagine yourself walking the park, and finding a dropped watch. You would, naturally, assume that someone dropped it. Sure, all of the elements included in that watch are in the Earth, the iron in the steel, the quartz inside... but you wouldn't assume that it simply came together.
By the laws of physics, matter coming into existance jsut does not happen. Can not happen. Is impossible. Perhaps there is another process there that we do not know of? perhaps another string of reactions involving the smallest building blocks of the universe. Perhaps. However, there comes a point, where as impossible as it is to understand, we come to a point where it is just as impossible to even observe those forces at work, be it of God, or of a natually occuring process.
So what do we have to go on? We know that 2000 years ago, a man named Jesus did walk the earth, and did claim to be the son of God, and did die crucified for the crime of blasphemy. I don't think you'll find very many historians that will deny that much. The only real valid debate is, was he the divine? the son of the God of the Israelites.
For that, there's a book written by Lee Strobel, a law student who started a case to refute Christ, but ended up becoming a Christian because of his studies. Anyway, It's called <a href='http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0310209307/qid%3D1052237404/sr%3D1-1/ref%3Dsr%5F1%5F3%5F1/104-9328563-4499922' target='_blank'><u>The Case For Christ</u></a>, and it's a good read, I highly recomend it.
My acceptance of Christ was based on more emotional conclusions that intellectual ones, to be perfectly honest, but that's a story for another time.
If you're thinking about this, and it's really impacting you, really making you think, I really do suggest reading through a gospel, Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John, and Romans. Really read through it, rip it apart, look at each verse.
The gospels are, of course, the story of Christ's life, and what that's all about, and Romans is Paul's stpe by step of why Christ was important, how it's applicable, and what we can do about it. I try to read them every so often, just to get myself re-centered on what's important in my life. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You do make a point, matter in nature <u>does</u> eventually reach a state of chaos, from order to chaos, and the only thing that changes that order, is living things which gather up the matter, and reorganize it...
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok. I'll let that one slide. But don't you ever make such a suggestion ever again <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
People who say things like that arent trying to cram anything down your throat, if they belive what they say they do, they think your goin to hell for eternity, and dont want you to.
That said, what you do is your own business, and no matter how much people "care" they shouldnt try to mke you do something you dont want to.
But what kind of God will that be?
Thing is, without the word of God passed down through the ages, what can you know about Him? What is He like? And what does He expect of you?
Individualized faith alone cannot answer these paramount questions. It can lead to obscure pantheism or some crude form of deism, but that's much less than organized religions with a well-developed theology and a moral code have to offer.
I don't care.
My theory is this: All religion comes from evolution. We have evolved to an amazing level of intelligence (including all the nub comms) and our intelligence has made us think a lot. Think about what happens after death.
Back when this intelligence dawned, we had no scientific equipment. So naturally, we turned to "gods", powerful beings that created us, taught us how to live, and took us to a better place when we died. But people started seeing holes in this theory: What is the point of living at all when there's a better place at the end of it all? But this was explained as a kind of "reward scheme", being that if you lived a good life, you would be rewarded. This seemed to make everyone happy.
So that is my theory. But what about my earlier belief in "Something"? Well, although it is possible that we are simply a freak of nature, and that nature itself is a freak of nature, but that seems very ILLOGICAL to me.
Before I end this post and accept the flames, I'd just like to note that I have read a book with some very compelling evidence that Jesus was an alien, and all the major ancient religions are based around aliens. Look at the <forgot the name> religion, the one that drew all the lines in the desert. From the ground, those lines are meaningless, but from the air, they form images such as a short man-shaped thing with a large head and big eyes, the stereotypical image of an "alien". Is it possible that that stereotype actually came from REAL aliens, the basis of religion? It is logical that, back in that time, advanced alien technology would seem like a miracle...
Sorry if I've unsettled any religios people around here, but these are my theories and I need to share them.
Re: the epistemology of science, raised by Wheee a few pages ago, I just found an interesting little article I'd like to share:
<a href='http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/faitharena.htm' target='_blank'> Investigating Faith</a>
This is puzzling... What makes an atheist dedicating his life to help others worse than a filthy brute converted to christianity in extremis ?
<!--QuoteBegin--Twex+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Individualized faith alone cannot answer these paramount questions. It can lead to obscure pantheism or some crude form of deism, but that's much less than organized religions with a well-developed theology and a moral code have to offer.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I challenge you to point out what good organized religions brought to humankind during theses first two millenia... countless generations had a harsher life because of religion. It proved to be an obstacle to progress and changes in history , and the moral codes you're speaking about froze the people's lifestyles for way too long. Monotheist religions did nothing for gender equality , in fact they reinforced the patriarchate system.
Religion brought stability to humankind , but not happyness.
Individualized faith may seem to be vain , but at least it doesn't oppress others.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Profound, and quite accurate: the world remains a mysterious place. But I'll try and explain. For my mind, it was easier to think of a chemical reaction starting the universe than to believe that there was some kind of divine force. The catch is of course that the two both require articles of faith: the differance being that science strives for facts to support such faith, whilst religion instead says that faith does not require proof, and to want proof is in fact not to have faith. I found the scientific answer to be not only more plausable, but the only real choice. I can't blindly accept something as the truth without having proof. Now if god appeared before me right now and said "Ryo! I am God! Look, a burning bush!" you could dress me in robes and call me converted. I need facts, evidence to believe in something. Science, whilst not having all those facts yet, strives to find them, and continues to find them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->People who say things like that arent trying to cram anything down your throat, if they belive what they say they do, they think your goin to hell for eternity, and dont want you to.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did come across a bit strong, and I apologise. But appreciate that I've had such requests to rejoin the "true faith" cramed down my throat before, and hence I tend to react strongly to people trying to convert me. Force of habit I guess <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I challenge you to point out what good organized religions brought to humankind during theses first two millenia... countless generations had a harsher life because of religion. It proved to be an obstacle to progress and changes in history , and the moral codes you're speaking about froze the people's lifestyles for way too long. Monotheist religions did nothing for gender equality , in fact they reinforced the patriarchate system.
Religion brought stability to humankind , but not happyness.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, it's not all bad, but there is a lot of suffering and ignorance that was perpetuated by religion up to and including the present day. The ideals that a belief system is founded upon are sometimes very good, the problem is that once you turn into a religion you get a heirachy, leadership and corruption. Churches or mosques or Jewish temples become instead of places of love and understanding, bastions of hatred and ignorance. Religions become corrupted by the very people running them, seduced by power, money and greed. Look at Christianity: it starts off with "love thy neighbour", "turn the other cheek", and ends up spliting into warring factions before actively embracing violence and warfare in the form of the Crusades. The apostles of Jesus were simple men and women with little money; turn the clock forwards a few hundred years and immensely wealthy patriaches and popes are running the show, decked out in the finest clothes and owners of vast tracts of Europe's best land. Mohummud preached words of peace, yet his followers ended up conquoring half the Eurasian landmass, and the kaliphs became corrupt with money and power.
Yet does religion bring happiness? There's a lot of truth in the old saying "ignorance is bliss". For many people, and this remains very true today, simply accepting the teachings of a religion is a tremendous burden lifted from their shoulders and the belief that there is something more than this life provides millions with joy and cheer. As an atheist I know just how hard it can be to accept my own beliefs that there is nothing else, that no-one is watching and once I die that will be it, game over. It's tough to burden one's self with such thoughts, and so much easier to let an organisation do them for you. So I think that the world's religions, whilst they have a lot to answer for in terms of wars, hatred, violence, the supression of education and learning, constant dogma and corruption they have made many people happier with their lives. Does that balance the ills of the world's religions? That, I believe, is up to the individual.
I like to judge "right" or "wrong" on my own and so far, I think that I've lead a reasonable life. Just because someone else defines something as a sin doesn't mean that it is going to come off that way to me. I don't think I'll believe in the fact that I'm going to hell for sinning until God himself flies down out of the sky on his magical carpet and pimp-slaps me back into living the right way.
<!--QuoteBegin--The Real Quasar+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The Real Quasar)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My theory is this: All religion comes from evolution. We have evolved to an amazing level of intelligence (including all the nub comms) and our intelligence has made us think a lot. Think about what happens after death.
Back when this intelligence dawned, we had no scientific equipment. So naturally, we turned to "gods", powerful beings that created us, taught us how to live, and took us to a better place when we died. But people started seeing holes in this theory: What is the point of living at all when there's a better place at the end of it all? But this was explained as a kind of "reward scheme", being that if you lived a good life, you would be rewarded. This seemed to make everyone happy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Assuming evolution actually did take place, the progression of intellignece wasn't a sudden "OMG LEWK I R SMRT!" , There was a rather large chunk of time between Neanderthals and Cro Magnon man, and they didn't suddenly find a generation of self-aware people.
Your theory seems to revolve around the fact that early man was scared utterly crap-less, and thus made up Gods for comfort. However, stable tribes of roving bands were, probably, the norm, and thus, they defended themselves nicely from wild animals and the like.
Besides, what is the likelyhood that a people that had just recently discovered fire would have the mental capacity to make up divine beings?
Now, assume that, say, Judaism was divinely inspired. Here we have a race of people, living faithfully, for thousands of years, WIHTOUT that be-good-and-get-to-heaven system. The Jews were, and still are, God's chosen people, and were garunteed protection and blessing from God.
The whole reward scheme you speak of didn't actually start until 300 years AFTER Christ, during the rise of the Catholic church. The early Christian churchs that Paul, Barnabass, Peter and John established through Acts, all taught the kind of grace-based salvation that Jesus preached. Paul even severely rebuked a Church that strayed from this teaching in Galatians. Even the first 10 verses show how disturbed Paul was by the corruption of the Gospel of Christ.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Before I end this post and accept the flames, I'd just like to note that I have read a book with some very compelling evidence that Jesus was an alien, and all the major ancient religions are based around aliens. Look at the <forgot the name> religion, the one that drew all the lines in the desert. From the ground, those lines are meaningless, but from the air, they form images such as a short man-shaped thing with a large head and big eyes, the stereotypical image of an "alien". Is it possible that that stereotype actually came from REAL aliens, the basis of religion? It is logical that, back in that time, advanced alien technology would seem like a miracle...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds fun. Link me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I challenge you to point out what good organized religions brought to humankind during theses first two millenia... countless generations had a harsher life because of religion. It proved to be an obstacle to progress and changes in history , and the moral codes you're speaking about froze the people's lifestyles for way too long. Monotheist religions did nothing for gender equality , in fact they reinforced the patriarchate system.
Religion brought stability to humankind , but not happyness.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll give you that one. Being told you had to buy up indulgences certainly couldn't have helped people.
But was the corruption, the pain, from man, or from God? Say from man, and you admit that it was something that people corrupted. Say from God, an I'll cite 10 examples, both form the Bible and from my own life, where God has enhanced people's lives, not destroyed them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yet does religion bring happiness? There's a lot of truth in the old saying "ignorance is bliss". For many people, and this remains very true today, simply accepting the teachings of a religion is a tremendous burden lifted from their shoulders and the belief that there is something more than this life provides millions with joy and cheer. As an atheist I know just how hard it can be to accept my own beliefs that there is nothing else, that no-one is watching and once I die that will be it, game over. It's tough to burden one's self with such thoughts, and so much easier to let an organisation do them for you. So I think that the world's religions, whilst they have a lot to answer for in terms of wars, hatred, violence, the supression of education and learning, constant dogma and corruption they have made many people happier with their lives. Does that balance the ills of the world's religions? That, I believe, is up to the individual. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahh, so you're going with, I think Stalin, who called religion an opiate?
IF religion was something you held onto because it made you feel better, why would people die for it? Why would people not renouce their faith before being burned at the stake, or before being nailed to a cross? I wouldn't ever stick by, say NS before death, or anything else save things that really, truely matter in the grand scheme of things. Like my family, or my friends, or my God.
Many, many atrocities have been committed in the name of God, I wont, and can't deny that. But find a verse where Jesus tells us those should be committed, and I'll renounce my faith right here.
But what kind of God will that be?
Thing is, without the word of God passed down through the ages, what can you know about Him? What is He like? And what does He expect of you?
Individualized faith alone cannot answer these paramount questions. It can lead to obscure pantheism or some crude form of deism, but that's much less than organized religions with a well-developed theology and a moral code have to offer. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
God is meant to be infinite right ? So then why must we rely on some ancient texts that have undergone who knows how much editing and translation over time for all the answers ?
I'm not meaning this to be sarcastic in any way. I'm serious when I say 'why can't an individual rediscover God if "he" is out there to be found' ? Surely any omnipotent figure wouldn't rely on one particular text that may or may not find its way into your hands to be the only way that you can know anything about "him" ?
Individualized faith to my mind represents someone making the effort to explore and understand 'God' on a personal level. Organized religions have been notoriously corrupt over the ages e.g. paying money for the forgiveness of 'sins'. Even today we have all this nasty business about child-molestation in the churches.
and this fact is:
"most of the wars throughout human life were CAUSED by some kind of <u>religious</u> conflict/disagreement"
therefore, by that statement, I can safely say that religion CANT be a good thing if it started most of our wars
Ahh, so you're going with, I think Stalin, who called religion an opiate?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is from Lenin... for Marx's sake <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Though the corruption found in any religion comes from the man obviously , the fact that it was "sacred" considerably diminished resistance against corrupted ideals.
Religion is dangerous because the Church's hierarchy claim they aknowledge the utopic rules they got from God and apply them , therefore questionning their authority is blasphemy.
God is kept hostage by priests.
Religion wars were incredibly violent , but also vain since no ideology or faith can keep its purity throughout centuries.
The source of this corruption , what let zealots commit abominations is DoubleThinking. No end justifies barbaric means , slaughtering people to make sure they aknowledge the rule "thou shallst not kill" makes no sense at all. Jesus gave the exemple of tolerance towards a prostitute being stoned by believers , yet irish churches were still recently imprisonning young women for years just because they had a natural child , and use all this time for "expiation" ... though they never caused harm to anyone.
People always manage to live in violation of their most sacred principles , using any kind of excuse.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ulatoh+Aug 23 2003, 10:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ulatoh @ Aug 23 2003, 10:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But Not believing in god is a sin against God, thats why its the only one you go to hell for... Commit any one of the sins you just named, and you still belive in God an Jesus, and you ask for forgiveness, your still getting into heaven<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, but it isn't that simple. If I were to say to myself, "Why go through all the troubles of believing in God now, when you can ask Jesus as your savior at an older age?" There would be a problem, nobody knows the day we die, it could be tommorow or thirty years from now. I believe unless your truly repentful, you will not get into heaven. Maybe there are different levels of the after life, like a purgatory or limbo. But in "essence," what you said is true.
(Luke 9:23-25 NIV) Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. {24} For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it. {25} What good is it if a man gains the whole world and loses his own soul? Here is another reference to the same thing: (Luke 14:27 NIV) And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Aug 23 2003, 11:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Aug 23 2003, 11:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can't blindly accept something as the truth without having proof. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I gave you some photos of Jesus and maybe a twelve page document with scientific analysis proving his existence, which was authenticated by top scholars, I think you would have a harder time believing in the evidence itself. You would probably ask for more, which is of course normal, because I would. God is like the wind, you can't see him, but you can feel him. There are some bible verses that explain this better than I could, but I can't seem to find them anywhere. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
EDIT:
<!--QuoteBegin--Stakhanov+Aug 23 2003, 03:54 PM --></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stakhanov @ Aug 23 2003, 03:54 PM )</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is from Lenin... for Marx's sake?
Though the corruption found in any religion comes from the man obviously , the fact that it was "sacred" considerably diminished resistance against corrupted ideals.
Religion is dangerous because the Church's hierarchy claim they aknowledge the utopic rules they got from God and apply them , therefore questionning their authority is blasphemy.
God is kept hostage by priests.
Religion wars were incredibly violent , but also vain since no ideology or faith can keep its purity throughout centuries.
The source of this corruption , what let zealots commit abominations is DoubleThinking. No end justifies barbaric means , slaughtering people to make sure they aknowledge the rule "thou shallst not kill" makes no sense at all. Jesus gave the exemple of tolerance towards a prostitute being stoned by believers , yet irish churches were still recently imprisonning young women for years just because they had a natural child , and use all this time for "expiation" ... though they never caused harm to anyone.
People always manage to live in violation of their most sacred principles , using any kind of excuse.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, the Kingdom of God and Man get confused, which I will explain later on if you want. A lot of what happens and happened has no justification, so bringing God and religion into it is like what he said, double thinking.
You often hear how corrupted the Scripture supposedly has become over the centuries, but actually it has been copied so often that it's the oldest, most well-preserved document we know. The three irresolvable corruptions we know of all involve numbers (they're easy to confuse in Hebrew): The exact number of returning exiles, Jehoiachin's age when he became king, and the height of the pillars of Solomon's temple. All in the OT, and not exactly cornerstones of faith.
There are indeed many disagreements about certain translations. But they're all well documented, and the original texts, in Hebrew and Koine Greek, are still there! Whoever is so inclined can translate them again.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Religion is dangerous because the Church's hierarchy claim they aknowledge the utopic rules they got from God and apply them , therefore questionning their authority is blasphemy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Dark Ages are over, you know. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Back then, the clergy were pretty much the only ones who could read at all. It's not very surprising that they held the monopoly for exegesis, is it?
But now you're free to question and openly criticize any Bishop you want. You can do that because the Church has preserved both the Scripture itself and tons of secondary literature for your enjoyment and scrutiny. That's a complexity "ego-religions" can't attain. A single guy starting from scratch simply cannot create a deep, coherent, beautiful web of the most intriguing thoughts, such as true organized religions have.
You often hear how corrupted the Scripture supposedly has become over the centuries, but actually it has been copied so often that it's the oldest, most well-preserved document we know. The three irresolvable corruptions we know of all involve numbers (they're easy to confuse in Hebrew): The exact number of returning exiles, Jehoiachin's age when he became king, and the height of the pillars of Solomon's temple. All in the OT, and not exactly cornerstones of faith.
There are indeed many disagreements about certain translations. But they're all well documented, and the original texts, in Hebrew and Koine Greek, are still there! Whoever is so inclined can translate them again.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem comes in when people say "but the bible _clearly_ states that x is such".
Especially with issues like homosexuality. Little differences in translation can have enormous ramifications here.
and this fact is:
"most of the wars throughout human life were CAUSED by some kind of religious conflict/disagreement"
therefore, by that statement, I can safely say that religion CANT be a good thing if it started most of our wars <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, calling people "religious priks" isn't a good way to win a debate. Especially when you've got someone with broadband, a short fuse, and nothing better to do, as you'll soon see <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"most of the wars throughout human life were CAUSED by some kind of religious conflict/disagreement"
therefore, by that statement, I can safely say that religion CANT be a good thing if it started most of our wars <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, I'm going to take you up on that one. First of all, backing up your point about the majority of wars being caused by religion. I found a site giving a nice timeline of most of the wars humanity has gone through, since 30th Century BC <a href='http://www.warscholar.com/Timeline.html#Middle%20Ages' target='_blank'>Here</a>.
Go through from 1st Century AD to present, and classify every military action you see there into led by church or led by state.
Then, look at all those led by Church, and find what justification was given by the Bible for those actions. THEN you can come back here and shoot your mouth off about us "religious priks"
Oh by the way. More people are alive now then have ever died, due to the exponentiality of population growth. As I hear, this mark has been surpassed jsut recently, so lets say that about 5.8 billion people have ever died.
<a href='http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat8.htm' target='_blank'>(source)</a> If you'll look on that site, you'll see that most of the estimated statistics given total about 200 Million people dying in warfare-related conditions.
Due to the fact that the 20th century has been the most populus of the world's history, I'm going to use that as our source. Please bear with me.
Lets look at all the major genocides of the 20th century, and the wars involved with each.
WW2 = 50,000,000 dead.
Mao Zedong = 40,000,000 dead.
Stalin = 20,000,000 Dead.
WW1 = 15,000,000 dead.
In all, that's 125,000,000 deaths. out of that 200 million mentioned earlyer, that's 62.5% of the 20th century's deaths, caused by:
a) Mass murderers.
b) Networks of "OMG SECKRAT ALLIANCE!"
Guess what. That's the majority of deaths from NON-religious causes.
Oh, and guess what. According to the World Christian Encyclopedia, cited from by both the Brittanica and the World Almanac, there's been a total of 70 Million Christian Martyrs. 45 Million of them in the 20th century.
31 Million of those from Aetheists.
Guess how many killings were done in the name of Christ? On other Christians?
9 Million. So much for your "religion has caused the most deaths/wars" argument. IF anything, it sounds like Christians are the ones being persecuted the most, not the ones dishing it out. Gee, I wonder where I have heard that before?
2 Timothy 3:12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,
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Yes.
It's called faith. Just think of the first time you stopped at a stop sign and another car was comming up behind you. Did you jump the stopsign because their was a car comming up behind you, and you might get hit? No. You took it on faith that they would stop, like they were supposed to.
God told us that if we belive his son, Jesus Christ, is the son of God, and that he was the only son of God, and God was the only God, then we would have life eternal in heaven. I trust him, just like you trust the guy to stop behind you at a stop light. The only difference is, God allways has good brakes <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Especially with issues like homosexuality. Little differences in translation can have enormous ramifications here. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that such simple statements aren't adequate when translation and interpretation are contestable within the realm of reason. Any opinion hoping to hold water must be backed up by a more in-depth analysis of the issues at hand.
For example, any informed discussion about the morality of homosexuality must address the concerns <a href='http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/assault/bible/boswell.html' target='_blank'>Boswell</a> raised about "arsenokoitai", as well as their subsequent <a href='http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/greek/boswell.html' target='_blank'>refutations</a>.
IF religion was something you held onto because it made you feel better, why would people die for it? Why would people not renouce their faith before being burned at the stake, or before being nailed to a cross? I wouldn't ever stick by, say NS before death, or anything else save things that really, truely matter in the grand scheme of things. Like my family, or my friends, or my God.
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Why do people die for governments? Why do people die for ideals such as socialism or Nazism? Belief takes many forms, and if someone belives in something strongly enough then they will be willing to die for it. I think that religion has made a lot of people happy, but that's not nessassarily why someone would die for it . Religion is a focus for belief just like any ideology or ideal, and you will always get people willing to die for a cause they believe in strongly enough. Dying for an ideology does not make it right, just or holy: it simply indicates that a person strongly believed in such a ideal.
And it was Lenin who said that religion is the opiate of the masses.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's called faith. Just think of the first time you stopped at a stop sign and another car was comming up behind you. Did you jump the stopsign because their was a car comming up behind you, and you might get hit? No. You took it on faith that they would stop, like they were supposed to.
God told us that if we belive his son, Jesus Christ, is the son of God, and that he was the only son of God, and God was the only God, then we would have life eternal in heaven. I trust him, just like you trust the guy to stop behind you at a stop light. The only difference is, God allways has good brakes <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You actually don't take it for granted that the guy behind you will stop; you should always be prepared to move forwards or sideways to avoid a possible collision. Check your rear-view mirror constantly. But yes, you do think that the person behind you will stop. But there are reasons for that, logical factual reasons:
1. It's not in the other car's intrests to hit you. That means damages, injury, insurance and possible sueing; in short far more trouble than compared to stoping your car instead.
2. It's illegal. Possible jail terms or fines for crashing your car into another. Possible suspension of license. Again, far more trouble than simply stopping.
Hence the driver of the first car is not banking on faith. He believes that the other driver has a vested intrest not to hit his car. But accidents do happen. That's why the driver in the 1st car keeps a close eye on the other car in case it per-chance doesn't stop.
Now what reasons do we have to trust God? For starters we have the interpretation of the words of a man dead 2,000 years. No book that is rewritten over and over again remains the same, not to mention the influence of the church upon the people who copied such texts. Secondly, we know from more reliable history records that there was a religious movement in Palistine during the Roman occupation, but this does not make such a movement right or correct. Thirdly we have no living person who can vouch for the divinity of one Jesus of Nazareth, nor do we have reliable records of his life or teachings.
When you're a historian like myself you have to take a lot of historical evidence with a large grain of salt: take for example the treaty between the Pharoah Ramses II and the King of Mesopotamia: each side talks of a battle where both sides apprently won an overwhelming victory. Both attribute this to the gods. Obviously both cannot be correct, and both have "sexed up" their accounts of the battle. Finding the truth amongst such documents can be hard, and it is no differant with religious texts. A historian cannot write down in a book that the Christian armies in the 1st Crusade won at the Battle of Jerusalam because god was with them and expect to be taken seriously. He/she could write that the belief that god was on their side helped the Christians win, but we can't attribute things to a higher power. Hence I look at the Bible and see a questionable historical source that much be taken with a grain of salt the size of Lot's wife <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Thus why it is not proof of anything: if I had in my possession a chronicle of the Roman Empire that had been copied and rewritten a hundred times from it's creation in 1 AD through to the present I would view it with just as much sceptisism.
Blinding accepting faith isn't something I can do. I can't trust some vague idea of a higher power because no proof exists to prove his/her/it's existance, and neither is there any reason why it should exist. I have reasons to believe the guy behind me is going to stop, but even then I still take precautions. I have no reason to believe that there ever was or is a god or that he had a son named Jesus Christ.
<a href='http://www.aaronc.com/doctrine/versions.html' target='_blank'>http://www.aaronc.com/doctrine/versions.html</a>
Both are good reads that more or less answer your questions.
You're right about the changes in scripture though. Both the NIV and the NASB seem to kind of try and dilute the power of the message. However, by combining three different translations, and the greek w/ a greek dictionary, you can almost always find the meaning as depicted by the author, simply by looking at context and how the original word is translated elsewhere in different versions.
As I see it, there are only two possible ways that we originated: either by chance/chaos, or by something that created us.
I can't find myself agreeing with the former simply because I honestly can't find anything created by "chance". The only complex things I can think of in nature that "just occur" (in this case, from something less complex becoming into something more complex) are: 1. Tornadoes and 2. Snowflake patterns
But just look at everything that surrounds you in the room you're currently in. Did any of those things just become what they are by a some simple mixing of substances? I can't find anything.
I can only conclude there is a higher power. As to what that power may be... well... I'm still trying to figure that out.
This has given me a perspective that religion is not such an innocent thing that people use as a crutch. It wastes time, it causes grief, it sucks the enjoyment out of life, it gets in the way of everything. Not all religions are like this, but to me, traditional conservative chrisitianity is.
<a href='http://www.landoverbaptist.org/' target='_blank'>http://www.landoverbaptist.org/</a>
This is a paradoy site, but still it proves my point perfectly. Imagine living a life like this, when your enjoyment of life and your enlightenment is so restricted, yet you realize how low the chances of this religion truly being the correct way are(of course when your in this deep, you are convinced you have found the way). Why bother?
So suppose I suddenly find a religion that does not restrict me like Christianity did. Well the problem is that I am only a part of it because I like it's rules, so why waste my time at all? I don't want to bother with religion if I can't truly be in contact with god. And without brainwashing myself by being in to deep, I probably won't find god in X religion. I either find him on my own, or I never find him. So if I like certain sets of rules, I might as well follow philosphy, not religion.
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Personally, I don't think it falls into either description. I know for me it's not a crutch. A crutch carries you, you're not supposed to have to bear a burden for it. Yet, that is exactly what Christ asks us to do.
Matthew 6:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
As for wasting time, causing greif, and sucking enjoyment out of life...
The work I do for Christ, if it wins people over for the Lord, then that's not a waste of time. That's an investment in people that lasts forever. I know that even if they were to die that night, that I would see them in heaven. That's not a waste of time, by any means.
Causing greif? How does it do that? By saying we should not do certain things? Things that in the end hurt us? I really truely, in my life, cannot think of anything more fullfilling and worthwhile than commiting my life to doing God's will. I know it sounds all brainwashed and fundamentalist, but it's true. What else can I do, what else can I invest my time into, that will truely last forever. Even if you don't believe in God, or any higher power, I think everyone can pretty much agree that the most worthwhile receptor of our love, of our eforts, is other people.
And, that's exactly where Christ tells us to direct our efforts.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't want to bother with religion if I can't truly be in contact with god. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm honestly not sure I know of another religion where a Diety encourages us to directly ask Him/Her/It for provision of our needs, and that actually allows and encourages us to directly converse with Him/Her/It. The concept of prayer is an amazing thing.