Only by following God's rules can we ever be truely free. I don't see how that falls into sucking the fun out of life. Talk to someone with AID's, I'm sure they're living the high-life right now because they couldn't follow just one of God's rules, that's why they are there.
Believe it or not, following God's guidelines promises less pain, and less trouble. God knows human behavior, and he knows sex is good, and he knows that alcohol is good. He created these things, he created women, but he tells us to do these things in defined rules to protect ourselves.
Christianity is not a waste of time, I'm not quite sure where you got this idea, but I'm assuming it's just the skewed images provided by society. You definetly didn't hear that from a Christian I would assume.
Honestly, serving others is <i>the most</i> fulfilling thing you can do, no wonder that doing as God commanded is so fulfilling.
<!--QuoteBegin--Sirus+Aug 25 2003, 12:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sirus @ Aug 25 2003, 12:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Only by following God's rules can we ever be truely free. I don't see how that falls into sucking the fun out of life. Talk to someone with AID's, I'm sure they're living the high-life right now because they couldn't follow just one of God's rules, that's why they are there.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I must inform you that your comment is highly unfair and equally insensitive to those who have AIDs through no fault of their own. Or do you believe that someone who received AIDs from a blood-transfusion or as a baby from an HIV positive mother somehow "broke one of God's rules" also ?
As for sucking the fun out of life... my former days at church revolved around constantly being told that we're all evil, sinners, basically worthless. Gee, that just really brightened my day you know.
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Aug 24 2003, 07:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Aug 24 2003, 07:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't want to bother with religion if I can't truly be in contact with god. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm honestly not sure I know of another religion where a Diety encourages us to directly ask Him/Her/It for provision of our needs, and that actually allows and encourages us to directly converse with Him/Her/It. The concept of prayer is an amazing thing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I guess this takes some time to "get into", but for the most part, I've always felt like prayer has been a one-way conversation. If I recall, what most people commonly refer to as their conscience is for Christians the Holy Spirit. But more and more I begin to feel it's not God's voice telling me what's right and wrong; it's simply my own. I just feel so disillusioned that prayer is even conversing with a being; more like conversing with an answering machine message made a LONG time ago. I use this analogy for the fact that any of our problems should simply be approachable by means of the Bible. It's supposed to be the "Living Word"; but to me, it's just text on paper, even if it's meaningful. I don't mean to test God, but darnit, I would really appreciate being able to talk to him in the flesh instead of guessing whether that voice in my head is mine or God's. I mean, a conscience is not exclusive to Christians; so how am I to differentiate between my voice and His voice?
This is just MY personal experience (as limited as it is). From the testimonies that I've heard, there have been some very precise communication other Christians have had with God. I have not experienced this, so I am not sure where I stand as a Christian... if anywhere. My Sunday school teacher had earlier told me this year told me that due to my doubt as to where I would go after I die, I was still not a Christian (and this is having gone to church all my life).
Since then I've gone through ups and downs, but inspite of the erratic flow of my relationship with God, it hasn't gone anywhere, except maybe down.
<!--QuoteBegin--Moon+Aug 24 2003, 09:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Moon @ Aug 24 2003, 09:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As for sucking the fun out of life... my former days at church revolved around constantly being told that we're all evil, sinners, basically worthless. Gee, that just really brightened my day you know. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Sinners? Yes. Worthless? No.
We have potential, all of us to become tools - just like in <i>Ender's Game</i>. Tools for whom is the question...
My impression is that thanks to "The Fall of Man", we've been corrupted, yet inspite of that, and if we allow ourselves to, Christians become remolded to become something awesome. Not because they accomplished it themselves, but because God reshaped them to become awesome.
Even individuals who seem to "have it together" can achieve so much more if they allow God to use them. For God's convenience, they had some talents included.
We both know that's the exception, by AID's started because of sin. Someone who was carrying it was responsible for transferring it, and their sin hurt someone else. Even more reason to follow God's law.
Just as a heads-up, you will meet lukewarm Christians, or just Sunday-Christians, who behave a certain way just because that's what they've grown up to know and really have no concern in what being a Christian means.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for sucking the fun out of life... my former days at church revolved around constantly being told that we're all evil, sinners, basically worthless. Gee, that just really brightened my day you know. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This type of Evangelism is what peeves me sometimes. Many Christians almost treat people as just a target for their vendetta for evangelism, seemingly as if they aren't concerned for what you think or feel. They try to spread a general message of Christ everytime they meet someone. This burns people, and gives them a horridly skewed version of what Christianity is. In Legionnaired's former signature, a quote from Billy Grahm speaking that Christian's behaviors are one of the most defining factor for unbelievers.
I'm very careful about evangelism, I don't feel that people will want to listen to fire and brimstone messages simply because it's almost threatening. All in all, it's not a very compelling case for Christ.
Confuzor. It seems almost like you're putting God in a box, as if he was genie, to answer questions. You can't lose your salvation, if you genuinely believe. Seems like your teacher doesn't know much biblically, I would personally suggest finding a different church. Just because they call themselves Christians doesn't mean they necessarily teach true Christianity, find a church that preaches purely out of the Bible.
Prayer is an odd thing, I never understood it, but keep doing it, God tells us this. I know prayer works, after my ear surgery, they had to do reconstructive surgery to create my left eardrum, I was told that I would have to go in once again to remove scar tissue. The pastor's in my church continued to pray for me, when I returned for my follow up to schedule the operation the ear surgeon asked "Why I was here" he looked in my ear and said that everything looks fine. The ear surgeon is one of the best in the whole hospital and perhaps the city.
Confuzor, I would suggest to continue reading scripture, I would suggest reading Romans again if you haven't already, find a better church, and find a group of Christian friends in addition to your school/casual friends. Alot of the time if we spend time alone, or away from other Christians we feel down, or on a low, because we surround ourselves by things that heavily influence, and rarely, they are good. Fellowship is a good thing, just sitting around with a bunch of guys can be great fellowship. Humans were not created to be alone.
Trust in the death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and acceptance of him as your savior and a genuine belief is the only means of salvation. Examine your life and think about where your life has gone, have you died to yourself ? Have you given up what you want to do ? Have you tried to change bad habits, ask God for assistance and help ? Personally, I've always prayed for God to give me wisdom, and over my life, I've realized how dramatically I've changed.
Sometimes I complain A LOT to God, like, why God, why does it have to be this way, or why are people better off than me. Do any of you people have any advice for my thinking?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I guess this takes some time to "get into", but for the most part, I've always felt like prayer has been a one-way conversation. If I recall, what most people commonly refer to as their conscience is for Christians the Holy Spirit. But more and more I begin to feel it's not God's voice telling me what's right and wrong; it's simply my own. I just feel so disillusioned that prayer is even conversing with a being; more like conversing with an answering machine message made a LONG time ago. I use this analogy for the fact that any of our problems should simply be approachable by means of the Bible. It's supposed to be the "Living Word"; but to me, it's just text on paper, even if it's meaningful. I don't mean to test God, but darnit, I would really appreciate being able to talk to him in the flesh instead of guessing whether that voice in my head is mine or God's. I mean, a conscience is not exclusive to Christians; so how am I to differentiate between my voice and His voice?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know how you feel about this, because I often think about it. Prayer is a very unique thing, it opens a causeway b/w God and yourself. Often when praying, I feel like God does not answer, my guess is that you have to have extreme faith and/either God if willing will show grace to you, because you are "chosen." Whenver I see my mother, she is extremely faithful, never has she doubted God's will, she speaks in tongues, which I have heard her speak, and the holy spirit has talked to her in times of importance. It is actually God's voice in your head from what she tells me, she claims and I believe her, that the voice was totally unique from hers and it gave her warmth. But yeah, for people, who are, umm, lets say, more complex in the head, doubt a lot, because both sides provide very good reasons why God doesn't or does exist.
<!--QuoteBegin--Sirus+Aug 25 2003, 01:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sirus @ Aug 25 2003, 01:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for sucking the fun out of life... my former days at church revolved around constantly being told that we're all evil, sinners, basically worthless. Gee, that just really brightened my day you know. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This type of Evangelism is what peeves me sometimes. Many Christians almost treat people as just a target for their vendetta for evangelism, seemingly as if they aren't concerned for what you think or feel. They try to spread a general message of Christ everytime they meet someone. This burns people, and gives them a horridly skewed version of what Christianity is. In Legionnaired's former signature, a quote from Billy Grahm speaking that Christian's behaviors are one of the most defining factor for unbelievers.
I'm very careful about evangelism, I don't feel that people will want to listen to fire and brimstone messages simply because it's almost threatening. All in all, it's not a very compelling case for Christ.
I caught some of Franklin Graham on tv a while back. I don't think I saw him ever smile once. To be honest I saw someone that resembled a hawk about to pounce on unsuspecting prey. He didn't seem happy to me.
Interesting to contrast this with someone like the Dalai Lama. He seems to radiate a kindness and a calm purpose.
I might of once considered God as a genie, but I think I gave that up a long time ago.
The following will have sparks of cynicism... since it can be hard to detect on the Internet, I'll try to make it more visible by using capital letters to highlight said pieces.
I really don't know what to think of prayer. When it comes to things like homework, I am continually surprised by how it works out. But as the reign of doubt continues to stomp on my life, I've bothered with realizations like, "You got your marks because you studied. You want to try to see the results for a test by spending 2 hours praying instead of using that time to study? What makes you think your success is based solely on your faith? Non-Christians can easily obtain good marks as well" - things like that.
When it comes to the really big things in life, prayer has been a let down, (or as I currently view it as a letdown). Here are the things that have really stood out to me.
<b>1.</b> At the age of around seven, my mom's cancer had resurfaced. Of course, I and a lot of other people prayed for her. Holy water was brought over from Italy for her to be touched with. BUT YOU GUESSED IT! She died.
Okay, I guess that it was selfish. I mean, it's my mom, of course I want her to live FOR MYSELF. I know they say suffering can make you stronger (well depending on how you take it). I'm 17 now, and while I try not to venture into one of those "what if..." questions, on numerous occassions I think God did himself damage by denying me the wisdom my mom could of shared to me. But hell, God's supposed to know what he's doing, so I'll just live life patiently (like I have a choice) and see how it works out in the long run.
<b>2.</b> My sister and dad have never gotten along very well. They get into arguements very easily, and often it can escalate into physical fights. I had prayed for several years that they could get along; damn it, I'm not ever sure if there's love between the relationship. I'd consider it a friggin miracle if they ever hugged. Because "the Lord works in mysterious ways", the prayers I made seem to have been a failure even though it might change in the future. After a particularly nasty fight, my sister resolved to move out. She's been out for several months now, and even with her last visit back home for car advice from my dad, it still ended in an arguement. So yeah, as far as I see it, my prayers concerning my dad and sister getting along together has been answered with a resounding <b>No</b>. Well God, you're supposed to know you're doing, so yeah, I STILL TRUST YOU.
<b>3.</b> Back to my eternal struggle with peace with God. I'm not sure if I've ever loved God. Yes Jesus's sacrifice is beyond priceless, but for me, it feels distant. All my human friends are people who I can talk to in the flesh, someone I can talk to and who will talk to me. Hell, even with pets, you can see them, they're there, and you can pet them. Jesus is the sole "elusive friend". As I've already said in my previous post, my current prayers feel one-way. I know what God's done by the actions he's done in the Bible, and from the testimonies of others. But for myself, do I personally "know" him? The answer has, and still remains as "No". So why am I even bother to go to church? <i>Why, the threat of damnation, of course! </i> - I have always been bothered by this sole (and pitiful) reason for following God.
Believing in God is not just acknowledging his existence; it's also loving God and trusting him. I do not have the latter, so it comes to no surprise why my Sunday schoolteacher said I wasn't a Christian.
Not that this has to much bearing with what I just wrote, but I thought I'd post it anways:
<i>I asked God to take away my habit God said, “No. It is not for me to take away, but for you to give it up.” I asked God to make my handicapped child whole. God said, “No. His spirit is whole, his body is only temporary.” I asked God to grant me patience. God said, “No. Patience is a byproduct of tribulations; It isn't granted, it is learned.” I asked God to give me happiness. God said, “No. I give you blessings; Happiness is up to you.” I asked God to spare me pain. God said, “No. Suffering draws you apart from worldly cares And brings you closer to Me.” I asked God to make my spirit grow. God said, “No. You must grow on your own! But I will prune you to make you fruitful.” I asked God for all things that I might enjoy life. God said, “No. I will give you life, so that you may enjoy all things.” I ask God to help me LOVE others, as much as He loves me. God said, “Ahhhh, finally you have the idea.”</i>
- Heh, that concludes my Xanga for the night. Stay tuned for more emotional hijacking!
I used to be very atheistic until I realized my judgment of true believers was completely unfair. They're not demons that want to convince you into believing their lies so they have an easier to believing them, too. I'm a believer now and I've heard every atheist argument (said once, also). I don't believe because I'm scared of there being nothing after I die and I don't believe because I'm scared of being worthless. Atheism to me is like a trend, people who don't believe in God only do so because of false perceptions about theist beliefs. The media likes to take little quotes of religious leaders like Jerry Falwell attacking homosexuals and blaming them for AIDS, but they never quote them when they preach about love, compassion, and forgiveness. No matter what your belief is, you should read The Bible. It might teach you something, or at least erase and false perceptions you have about it.
You don't need religion to tell you anything about God, and you don't need today's society to tell you anything about religion.
<!--QuoteBegin--Confuzor+Aug 25 2003, 01:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Confuzor @ Aug 25 2003, 01:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <i>I asked God to take away my habit God said, “No. It is not for me to take away, but for you to give it up.” I asked God to make my handicapped child whole. God said, “No. His spirit is whole, his body is only temporary.” I asked God to grant me patience. God said, “No. Patience is a byproduct of tribulations; It isn't granted, it is learned.” I asked God to give me happiness. God said, “No. I give you blessings; Happiness is up to you.” I asked God to spare me pain. God said, “No. Suffering draws you apart from worldly cares And brings you closer to Me.” I asked God to make my spirit grow. God said, “No. You must grow on your own! But I will prune you to make you fruitful.” I asked God for all things that I might enjoy life. God said, “No. I will give you life, so that you may enjoy all things.” I ask God to help me LOVE others, as much as He loves me. God said, “Ahhhh, finally you have the idea.”</i> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks for writing that. I'm glad I'll have something to sleep on, tonight. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Honestly, serving others is the most fulfilling thing you can do, no wonder that doing as God commanded is so fulfilling. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, serving others is very fullfilling. Do you need to believe in God, Jesus, Allah or Vishnu? No, you do not.
I'm an atheist and I try constantly to help others. I donate money to charities, I help people I see in distress, I council friends who are depressed, I help nubs in NS instead of yelling at them, I try and spread love and kindnes through my actions every day. Just because one does not believe in a god does not mean that one cannot learn from some of the teachings of religion. "Love thy neighbour" "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" "turn the other cheek": these are all great teachings, and there are far worse things to base one's ethics and morals around.
If someone tries to convert me, I will try as nicely as possible to turn them away. I don't try and convert others at all. If someone says to me "Hey, can you explain this whole atheism thing?" then I'll sit down with them and talk/debate. Everyone's belief system is entirely their own.
Ryo-Ohki, if you are truly doing these things then you are working through the lessons of Jesus. Many have heard John 14:6 where he quotes Jesus as saying "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me." and most people have been told that it's Jesus saying that God's Kingdom is only open to only those who believe in Him. But it can also be interpreted as meaning that only through the lessons and principles that Jesus teaches us can we be one with God.
Well this is an old thread but what the hey, shouldn't hurt to many. Wow questions about God huh, preatty intense stuff. I don't need to say that this is not a new topic of inquirery(hmm..right spelling?). Anyways I think it is a privelige to be able to voice my opinions so i'll tell mine. Yes, I firmly and unquestionably believe in God but not because of upbringing. When I was younger I hated church with a passion so great that I have hated few things as deeply since. I saw God as some mean being that only made life boring. I can't remember when that changed, but I remember looking at the world from the window in my room and feeling purpose, not anything I could easily describe, just a comforting feeling. I look out and see the beauty of the world not because my beliefs have bestowed upon me some special vision, but because my feelings tell me I see what things are aside from just things. In recent talks with my mother I've discovered her own deelings with faith and more to the point her rare experiances with matters of religion. To me God is as real as air, never quite seen but rather percieved. I am quite open about my religion (christian in case you wondered) and am even reffered to as Jesus at my school (Tacoma School of the Arts in case you wondered <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ). I have no doubt that many who read this will think it bs or just something I wanted to believe, well it makes little difference to me what you believe about me, I just couldn't resist saying this. God doesn't have to be a burden, through my experiances I can safely say that I know God is real. I can't tell you how to find God, no one can tell you. I hope I didn't insult anyone, and I don't want you to think that I have some special power or something(or to think that I think I have some special power or something). Well that's my proof of God, I'm sorry it only provides proof for me. Peace of Christ be with you <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I totally agree about Christanity protecting us from dangerous behaviors.
People don't have to be Christian to live a safer life, I just feel there are alot of unharmful or debateable behaviors that might be forbidden by the bible, someone's interpretation of the bible, or a general sense of right and wrong presented by their denomination.
For example:
1)Swearing 2)Music that is satanic, has swearing, violence, or at least does not bother praising god. 3)Masturbation 4)Honor your mother and father like they were infalliable gods 5)Honor your government no matter what(give on to ceasar's what is ceasar's give unto god what is god's)
there is more than this. All in all though, I feel it has to do with that www.landoverbaptist.org feeling you get when you belong to the wrong type of denomination. This, not Christianity itself, is what troubles me so much. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1)Swearing 2)Music that is satanic, has swearing, violence, or at least does not bother praising god. 3)Masturbation 4)Honor your mother and father like they were infalliable gods 5)Honor your government no matter what(give on to ceasar's what is ceasar's give unto god what is god's) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) I don't swear near people who find it offensive. The rest of the time it offers me a release from anger, tension and stress. Would you rather I bought a shotgun and started shooting?
2) There is absolutly nothing wrong with music that is satanic, has swearing or violence. People listen to music as a form of entertainment, same as watching movies or playing PC games. Plenty of games and movies have satanic features, swearing and violence. Society as a whole determines that there is nothing wrong with mature people listening to and seeing such things. If you don't like it, no-one is forcing you to watch it.
3) What the hell is wrong with you? There is absolutly no problem with masterbation. Sure, if you do it 10 times a day you might start feeling a bit down. Same thing happens if you have sex 10 times a day. There is no differance between masterbation and having sex with someone else: your body treats both exactly the same way. Masturbation provides relief from sexual tension, stress and gives you a surge of pleasure. Call me a devil child if you will but you have no right to govern what I do with my body, especially when it is a legal and entirely non-harmful act. And don't throw that "it hurts your body" crap at me: any doctor worth his medical degree will laugh at such "proof" (yes, I have spoken to doctors about it here in Australia)
4) Ah, so if my father beats me up I should just accept it because he's my father? If my mother sexually abuses me should I just sit back and take it because she's my mother? Mothers and fathers are neither infallible or entirely suited to the job a lot of the time. Blindly accepting what they do to you is both stupid and dangerous. If they show you love and affection, by all means treat them the same. (no, my parents didn't abuse me but I've had friends who were)
5) Man, Hitler would have loved that one. I think that's all that's needed in response to that.
I'm pretty sure by the way he was wording it that he was saying those were things that people's interpretations of the Bible or denominations can make those things seem very wrong.
To number 4, the BIble does teach that we should love and forgive. But worship as infallable gods? Not only are people not at all infallable, but the first commandment is "I am the LORD thy God, you shall have no other God before me."
To number 5, Yes, we are supposed to be submissive, but supporting someone that obviously is causing pain, and doing that which is the polar opposite of God's will? No.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To number 5, Yes, we are supposed to be submissive, but supporting someone that obviously is causing pain, and doing that which is the polar opposite of God's will? No<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But god caused terrible pain and suffering. The destruction of Soddom and Ghomorra (spelling <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ), the drowing of almost the entire world's population, the slaying of Egypt's first born sons, the constant suffering and slavery inflicted on the Israelites, not to mention poor old Job. How can we see such a being as benevolant or loving when he has brought such pain according to your very scriptures?
The reasoning behind the orthodox view of masturbation as sinful is that God has created every part of our bodies to serve a purpose. The purpose of the sexual organs is twofold: Unitive, in so far as they bind us to members of the opposite gender, mirroring the tri-unity of God, and procreative, in so far as they make new life possible, as God does. Masturbation violates both these purposes.
Let me add that in my opinion, this teaching is neither explicitly nor implicitly present in the Scripture, and shouldn't have become dogmatic. It's unfortunate that the Church spends so much more time on sexual issues than Jesus did.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Only by following God's rules can we ever be truely free. I don't see how that falls into sucking the fun out of life. Talk to someone with AID's, I'm sure they're living the high-life right now because they couldn't follow just one of God's rules, that's why they are there.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We both know that's the exception, by AID's started because of sin. Someone who was carrying it was responsible for transferring it, and their sin hurt someone else. Even more reason to follow God's law.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, I am thoroughly offended. I don't think I will read this thread anymore. This is exactly the kind of close minded attitude I didn't expect. "Sin" is subjective. To impose your world view on anothers actions by calling them "sinful" is borderline on breaking <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=28&t=43638&st=0?entry592956' target='_blank'>Discussion Forum Rules</a>. (number 2). Wow, so basically you are saying they got what they deserved?
First, Discussion Forum Rule #2 applies to labelling other forum members, not condemning abstract acts morally.
Second, looking at the <a href='http://www.avert.org/worldstats.htm' target='_blank'>statistics</a>, it is hard to deny that a drugfree life of strict heterosexual monogamy/celebacy, such as taught by Christianity, will eliminate all primary transmission modes of AIDS.
<!--QuoteBegin--Twex+Aug 25 2003, 11:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex @ Aug 25 2003, 11:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Second, looking at the <a href='http://www.avert.org/worldstats.htm' target='_blank'>statistics</a>, it is hard to deny that a drugfree life of strict heterosexual monogamy/celebacy, such as taught by Christianity, will eliminate all primary transmission modes of AIDS. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Sex is a primary transmission mode of AIDS. If you cut that out, the race dies. So.... No, I'm afraid not. Homosexuality is no worse or better than bisexuality or heterosexuality.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The reasoning behind the orthodox view of masturbation as sinful is that God has created every part of our bodies to serve a purpose. The purpose of the sexual organs is twofold: Unitive, in so far as they bind us to members of the opposite gender, mirroring the tri-unity of God, and procreative, in so far as they make new life possible, as God does. Masturbation violates both these purposes. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then why is it pleasurable? If it only serves procreative and binding purposes, why make it give us a huge surge of pleasure?
On the subject, I have a fiancee. We have sex often, using contraception, and we have both decided that neither of us wants children. We love each other without question: she means more to me than life itself. So are we violating your god's greater plan by showing our love for one another physically? Are you saying our lovemaking serves no purpose? We both feel emotionally closer when we make love, and its one of the most wonderful ways to show your mutual love.
Are my parents going to burn in your hell because my father had his tubes snipped after they had 2 children and decided they didn't want any more? They have incredible love for one another; yet because they demonstrate that love to one another physically you're saying that they're damned?
Good thing I don't believe in god. Now I'm going to bed. With my fiancee. Yes, we live in what you would term "sin". And you know what? I wouldn't trade her for anything you or your god could offer me.
Once again, Ryo-Ohki proves to me that there are still logical, intelligent people on the NS forums. (Not that I'm insulting anyone, I was just saying that my faith in intelligent conversation dwindles every time I look at General Discussion.)
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Aug 25 2003, 04:28 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Aug 25 2003, 04:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1)Swearing 2)Music that is satanic, has swearing, violence, or at least does not bother praising god. 3)Masturbation 4)Honor your mother and father like they were infalliable gods 5)Honor your government no matter what(give on to ceasar's what is ceasar's give unto god what is god's) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) I don't swear near people who find it offensive. The rest of the time it offers me a release from anger, tension and stress. Would you rather I bought a shotgun and started shooting?
2) There is absolutly nothing wrong with music that is satanic, has swearing or violence. People listen to music as a form of entertainment, same as watching movies or playing PC games. Plenty of games and movies have satanic features, swearing and violence. Society as a whole determines that there is nothing wrong with mature people listening to and seeing such things. If you don't like it, no-one is forcing you to watch it.
3) What the hell is wrong with you? There is absolutly no problem with masterbation. Sure, if you do it 10 times a day you might start feeling a bit down. Same thing happens if you have sex 10 times a day. There is no differance between masterbation and having sex with someone else: your body treats both exactly the same way. Masturbation provides relief from sexual tension, stress and gives you a surge of pleasure. Call me a devil child if you will but you have no right to govern what I do with my body, especially when it is a legal and entirely non-harmful act. And don't throw that "it hurts your body" crap at me: any doctor worth his medical degree will laugh at such "proof" (yes, I have spoken to doctors about it here in Australia)
4) Ah, so if my father beats me up I should just accept it because he's my father? If my mother sexually abuses me should I just sit back and take it because she's my mother? Mothers and fathers are neither infallible or entirely suited to the job a lot of the time. Blindly accepting what they do to you is both stupid and dangerous. If they show you love and affection, by all means treat them the same. (no, my parents didn't abuse me but I've had friends who were)
5) Man, Hitler would have loved that one. I think that's all that's needed in response to that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think you misread that post.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I just feel there are alot of unharmful or debateable behaviors that might be forbidden by the bible,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1)Swearing 2)Music that is satanic, has swearing, violence, or at least does not bother praising god. 3)Masturbation 4)Honor your mother and father like they were infalliable gods 5)Honor your government no matter what(give on to ceasar's what is ceasar's give unto god what is god's) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1)I only swear out of anger or when I feel like I need to express something to a greater extent with a foul adjective. I don't see no reason not to swear unless you imply it to some other life form.
2)There are so many different types of individuals in the world in which different types of music serve. Everyone should be able to listen to whatever music they want, because it is their life.
3)It is only human nature to masturbate and release sexual tension, feel good and not impregenate someone else, plus it cleans the prostate gland. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> No, but I don't see a problem in masturbation unless you think of some lady while your doing it. It is possible not to think of girls while doing it. This is something even animals do and I don't have a problem if people are doing it, it is their life.
4)Although I try to practice this one a lot, most of the times I fail, because I am not perfect in following codes and conducts 24/7. All humans are not perfect.
Why do people get so sensitive when someone says the word "sin"? Yes I believe in sin, I also believe in forgiveness. I can't quite be sure every passage of The Bible is the word of God, so I don't like arguing about things such as Sodom and Gomorra. I know you can't take everything in The Bible seriously and I know that a lot of the things can be interpreted differently.
A lot of people don't read The Bible, they just hear some snippet from a fundamentalist Chrisitian and they judge it by that. Basically it goes back in forth of religious man judging the non-religious man based on his beliefs, and non-religious man judging religious man based his beliefs.
I don't know God's intentions or his plans for any of us after we die. I just believe that a lot of the things written in The New Testament are describing a road to God.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But god caused terrible pain and suffering. The destruction of Soddom and Ghomorra (spelling ), the drowing of almost the entire world's population, the slaying of Egypt's first born sons, the constant suffering and slavery inflicted on the Israelites, not to mention poor old Job. How can we see such a being as benevolant or loving when he has brought such pain according to your very scriptures? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off, capitalize the G in "God" when you are referring to the God of Judaisim and Christianity. Reason: A god would be like Zeus or Althena or Hermes, as in there is more then one of them. However, you capitalize the G in monotheistic religons. Second, all those people had what was coming to them, and they were all offered a chance to evade God's rightous wrath.
Sodom and Gomorrah:
Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous Genesis 18:19-21
Far be it from you to do such a thing-to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge [1] of all the earth do right?" The LORD said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake." Genesis 18: 25-26
Noah's arc:
God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. Genesis 6:12-13
Note: Noah and his family survive.
Egypt's first born son slaying:
Basically, because of Pharoh's stubborness God had to do a lot of killing to free the Isrealites; however, he provides a way out by having people put lamb's blood on the door frame.
Isrealites:
There are lot's of verses about them. Basically, whenever they would blatantly go off and sin against God, God punished them and <b>provides a way out via the Prophets.</b>
Essentially, God always provides a way out for His "suffering He causes."
<!--QuoteBegin--Bosnian+Aug 25 2003, 07:17 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bosnian @ Aug 25 2003, 07:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ryo-Ohki, if you are truly doing these things then you are working through the lessons of Jesus. Many have heard John 14:6 where he quotes Jesus as saying "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me." and most people have been told that it's Jesus saying that God's Kingdom is only open to only those who believe in Him. But it can also be interpreted as meaning that only through the lessons and principles that Jesus teaches us can we be one with God. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe Ryo's point was that he doesn't need a religion to govern his life. That he can be a respectable moral person without those constraints.
Yeah, ok. Please do not mix up the Israel's god and the christian's god. (and please do not take me for not captalizing the "G", it is here used as "someones" god, not God) The christian god does not kill people, easy as pie. He does not. He let people die from their own faults and doings, but not by his hand. Israel's God killed, he also made them go to war. And about Nohas Ark, he swore that he would never do anything like that ever again.
Comments
Believe it or not, following God's guidelines promises less pain, and less trouble. God knows human behavior, and he knows sex is good, and he knows that alcohol is good. He created these things, he created women, but he tells us to do these things in defined rules to protect ourselves.
Christianity is not a waste of time, I'm not quite sure where you got this idea, but I'm assuming it's just the skewed images provided by society. You definetly didn't hear that from a Christian I would assume.
Honestly, serving others is <i>the most</i> fulfilling thing you can do, no wonder that doing as God commanded is so fulfilling.
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I must inform you that your comment is highly unfair and equally insensitive to those who have AIDs through no fault of their own. Or do you believe that someone who received AIDs from a blood-transfusion or as a baby from an HIV positive mother somehow "broke one of God's rules" also ?
As for sucking the fun out of life... my former days at church revolved around constantly being told that we're all evil, sinners, basically worthless. Gee, that just really brightened my day you know.
I'm honestly not sure I know of another religion where a Diety encourages us to directly ask Him/Her/It for provision of our needs, and that actually allows and encourages us to directly converse with Him/Her/It. The concept of prayer is an amazing thing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess this takes some time to "get into", but for the most part, I've always felt like prayer has been a one-way conversation. If I recall, what most people commonly refer to as their conscience is for Christians the Holy Spirit. But more and more I begin to feel it's not God's voice telling me what's right and wrong; it's simply my own. I just feel so disillusioned that prayer is even conversing with a being; more like conversing with an answering machine message made a LONG time ago. I use this analogy for the fact that any of our problems should simply be approachable by means of the Bible. It's supposed to be the "Living Word"; but to me, it's just text on paper, even if it's meaningful. I don't mean to test God, but darnit, I would really appreciate being able to talk to him in the flesh instead of guessing whether that voice in my head is mine or God's. I mean, a conscience is not exclusive to Christians; so how am I to differentiate between my voice and His voice?
This is just MY personal experience (as limited as it is). From the testimonies that I've heard, there have been some very precise communication other Christians have had with God. I have not experienced this, so I am not sure where I stand as a Christian... if anywhere. My Sunday school teacher had earlier told me this year told me that due to my doubt as to where I would go after I die, I was still not a Christian (and this is having gone to church all my life).
Since then I've gone through ups and downs, but inspite of the erratic flow of my relationship with God, it hasn't gone anywhere, except maybe down.
Sinners? Yes. Worthless? No.
We have potential, all of us to become tools - just like in <i>Ender's Game</i>. Tools for whom is the question...
My impression is that thanks to "The Fall of Man", we've been corrupted, yet inspite of that, and if we allow ourselves to, Christians become remolded to become something awesome. Not because they accomplished it themselves, but because God reshaped them to become awesome.
Even individuals who seem to "have it together" can achieve so much more if they allow God to use them. For God's convenience, they had some talents included.
Just as a heads-up, you will meet lukewarm Christians, or just Sunday-Christians, who behave a certain way just because that's what they've grown up to know and really have no concern in what being a Christian means.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for sucking the fun out of life... my former days at church revolved around constantly being told that we're all evil, sinners, basically worthless. Gee, that just really brightened my day you know. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This type of Evangelism is what peeves me sometimes. Many Christians almost treat people as just a target for their vendetta for evangelism, seemingly as if they aren't concerned for what you think or feel. They try to spread a general message of Christ everytime they meet someone. This burns people, and gives them a horridly skewed version of what Christianity is. In Legionnaired's former signature, a quote from Billy Grahm speaking that Christian's behaviors are one of the most defining factor for unbelievers.
I'm very careful about evangelism, I don't feel that people will want to listen to fire and brimstone messages simply because it's almost threatening. All in all, it's not a very compelling case for Christ.
Confuzor. It seems almost like you're putting God in a box, as if he was genie, to answer questions. You can't lose your salvation, if you genuinely believe. Seems like your teacher doesn't know much biblically, I would personally suggest finding a different church. Just because they call themselves Christians doesn't mean they necessarily teach true Christianity, find a church that preaches purely out of the Bible.
Prayer is an odd thing, I never understood it, but keep doing it, God tells us this. I know prayer works, after my ear surgery, they had to do reconstructive surgery to create my left eardrum, I was told that I would have to go in once again to remove scar tissue. The pastor's in my church continued to pray for me, when I returned for my follow up to schedule the operation the ear surgeon asked "Why I was here" he looked in my ear and said that everything looks fine. The ear surgeon is one of the best in the whole hospital and perhaps the city.
Confuzor, I would suggest to continue reading scripture, I would suggest reading Romans again if you haven't already, find a better church, and find a group of Christian friends in addition to your school/casual friends. Alot of the time if we spend time alone, or away from other Christians we feel down, or on a low, because we surround ourselves by things that heavily influence, and rarely, they are good. Fellowship is a good thing, just sitting around with a bunch of guys can be great fellowship. Humans were not created to be alone.
Trust in the death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and acceptance of him as your savior and a genuine belief is the only means of salvation. Examine your life and think about where your life has gone, have you died to yourself ? Have you given up what you want to do ? Have you tried to change bad habits, ask God for assistance and help ? Personally, I've always prayed for God to give me wisdom, and over my life, I've realized how dramatically I've changed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I guess this takes some time to "get into", but for the most part, I've always felt like prayer has been a one-way conversation. If I recall, what most people commonly refer to as their conscience is for Christians the Holy Spirit. But more and more I begin to feel it's not God's voice telling me what's right and wrong; it's simply my own. I just feel so disillusioned that prayer is even conversing with a being; more like conversing with an answering machine message made a LONG time ago. I use this analogy for the fact that any of our problems should simply be approachable by means of the Bible. It's supposed to be the "Living Word"; but to me, it's just text on paper, even if it's meaningful. I don't mean to test God, but darnit, I would really appreciate being able to talk to him in the flesh instead of guessing whether that voice in my head is mine or God's. I mean, a conscience is not exclusive to Christians; so how am I to differentiate between my voice and His voice?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know how you feel about this, because I often think about it. Prayer is a very unique thing, it opens a causeway b/w God and yourself. Often when praying, I feel like God does not answer, my guess is that you have to have extreme faith and/either God if willing will show grace to you, because you are "chosen." Whenver I see my mother, she is extremely faithful, never has she doubted God's will, she speaks in tongues, which I have heard her speak, and the holy spirit has talked to her in times of importance. It is actually God's voice in your head from what she tells me, she claims and I believe her, that the voice was totally unique from hers and it gave her warmth. But yeah, for people, who are, umm, lets say, more complex in the head, doubt a lot, because both sides provide very good reasons why God doesn't or does exist.
This type of Evangelism is what peeves me sometimes. Many Christians almost treat people as just a target for their vendetta for evangelism, seemingly as if they aren't concerned for what you think or feel. They try to spread a general message of Christ everytime they meet someone. This burns people, and gives them a horridly skewed version of what Christianity is. In Legionnaired's former signature, a quote from Billy Grahm speaking that Christian's behaviors are one of the most defining factor for unbelievers.
I'm very careful about evangelism, I don't feel that people will want to listen to fire and brimstone messages simply because it's almost threatening. All in all, it's not a very compelling case for Christ.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed.
I caught some of Franklin Graham on tv a while back. I don't think I saw him ever smile once. To be honest I saw someone that resembled a hawk about to pounce on unsuspecting prey. He didn't seem happy to me.
Interesting to contrast this with someone like the Dalai Lama. He seems to radiate a kindness and a calm purpose.
The following will have sparks of cynicism... since it can be hard to detect on the Internet, I'll try to make it more visible by using capital letters to highlight said pieces.
I really don't know what to think of prayer. When it comes to things like homework, I am continually surprised by how it works out. But as the reign of doubt continues to stomp on my life, I've bothered with realizations like, "You got your marks because you studied. You want to try to see the results for a test by spending 2 hours praying instead of using that time to study? What makes you think your success is based solely on your faith? Non-Christians can easily obtain good marks as well" - things like that.
When it comes to the really big things in life, prayer has been a let down, (or as I currently view it as a letdown). Here are the things that have really stood out to me.
<b>1.</b> At the age of around seven, my mom's cancer had resurfaced. Of course, I and a lot of other people prayed for her. Holy water was brought over from Italy for her to be touched with. BUT YOU GUESSED IT! She died.
Okay, I guess that it was selfish. I mean, it's my mom, of course I want her to live FOR MYSELF. I know they say suffering can make you stronger (well depending on how you take it). I'm 17 now, and while I try not to venture into one of those "what if..." questions, on numerous occassions I think God did himself damage by denying me the wisdom my mom could of shared to me. But hell, God's supposed to know what he's doing, so I'll just live life patiently (like I have a choice) and see how it works out in the long run.
<b>2.</b> My sister and dad have never gotten along very well. They get into arguements very easily, and often it can escalate into physical fights. I had prayed for several years that they could get along; damn it, I'm not ever sure if there's love between the relationship. I'd consider it a friggin miracle if they ever hugged. Because "the Lord works in mysterious ways", the prayers I made seem to have been a failure even though it might change in the future. After a particularly nasty fight, my sister resolved to move out. She's been out for several months now, and even with her last visit back home for car advice from my dad, it still ended in an arguement. So yeah, as far as I see it, my prayers concerning my dad and sister getting along together has been answered with a resounding <b>No</b>. Well God, you're supposed to know you're doing, so yeah, I STILL TRUST YOU.
<b>3.</b> Back to my eternal struggle with peace with God. I'm not sure if I've ever loved God. Yes Jesus's sacrifice is beyond priceless, but for me, it feels distant. All my human friends are people who I can talk to in the flesh, someone I can talk to and who will talk to me. Hell, even with pets, you can see them, they're there, and you can pet them. Jesus is the sole "elusive friend". As I've already said in my previous post, my current prayers feel one-way. I know what God's done by the actions he's done in the Bible, and from the testimonies of others. But for myself, do I personally "know" him? The answer has, and still remains as "No". So why am I even bother to go to church? <i>Why, the threat of damnation, of course! </i> - I have always been bothered by this sole (and pitiful) reason for following God.
Believing in God is not just acknowledging his existence; it's also loving God and trusting him. I do not have the latter, so it comes to no surprise why my Sunday schoolteacher said I wasn't a Christian.
Not that this has to much bearing with what I just wrote, but I thought I'd post it anways:
<i>I asked God to take away my habit
God said, “No. It is not for me to take away, but for you to give it up.”
I asked God to make my handicapped child whole.
God said, “No. His spirit is whole, his body is only temporary.”
I asked God to grant me patience.
God said, “No. Patience is a byproduct of tribulations;
It isn't granted, it is learned.”
I asked God to give me happiness.
God said, “No. I give you blessings; Happiness is up to you.”
I asked God to spare me pain.
God said, “No. Suffering draws you apart from worldly cares
And brings you closer to Me.”
I asked God to make my spirit grow.
God said, “No. You must grow on your own!
But I will prune you to make you fruitful.”
I asked God for all things that I might enjoy life.
God said, “No. I will give you life, so that you may enjoy all things.”
I ask God to help me LOVE others, as much as He loves me.
God said, “Ahhhh, finally you have the idea.”</i>
- Heh, that concludes my Xanga for the night. Stay tuned for more emotional hijacking!
You don't need religion to tell you anything about God, and you don't need today's society to tell you anything about religion.
God said, “No. It is not for me to take away, but for you to give it up.”
I asked God to make my handicapped child whole.
God said, “No. His spirit is whole, his body is only temporary.”
I asked God to grant me patience.
God said, “No. Patience is a byproduct of tribulations;
It isn't granted, it is learned.”
I asked God to give me happiness.
God said, “No. I give you blessings; Happiness is up to you.”
I asked God to spare me pain.
God said, “No. Suffering draws you apart from worldly cares
And brings you closer to Me.”
I asked God to make my spirit grow.
God said, “No. You must grow on your own!
But I will prune you to make you fruitful.”
I asked God for all things that I might enjoy life.
God said, “No. I will give you life, so that you may enjoy all things.”
I ask God to help me LOVE others, as much as He loves me.
God said, “Ahhhh, finally you have the idea.”</i> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for writing that. I'm glad I'll have something to sleep on, tonight. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, serving others is very fullfilling. Do you need to believe in God, Jesus, Allah or Vishnu? No, you do not.
I'm an atheist and I try constantly to help others. I donate money to charities, I help people I see in distress, I council friends who are depressed, I help nubs in NS instead of yelling at them, I try and spread love and kindnes through my actions every day. Just because one does not believe in a god does not mean that one cannot learn from some of the teachings of religion. "Love thy neighbour" "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" "turn the other cheek": these are all great teachings, and there are far worse things to base one's ethics and morals around.
If someone tries to convert me, I will try as nicely as possible to turn them away. I don't try and convert others at all. If someone says to me "Hey, can you explain this whole atheism thing?" then I'll sit down with them and talk/debate. Everyone's belief system is entirely their own.
People don't have to be Christian to live a safer life, I just feel there are alot of unharmful or debateable behaviors that might be forbidden by the bible, someone's interpretation of the bible, or a general sense of right and wrong presented by their denomination.
For example:
1)Swearing
2)Music that is satanic, has swearing, violence, or at least does not bother praising god.
3)Masturbation
4)Honor your mother and father like they were infalliable gods
5)Honor your government no matter what(give on to ceasar's what is ceasar's give unto god what is god's)
there is more than this. All in all though, I feel it has to do with that www.landoverbaptist.org feeling you get when you belong to the wrong type of denomination. This, not Christianity itself, is what troubles me so much. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
2)Music that is satanic, has swearing, violence, or at least does not bother praising god.
3)Masturbation
4)Honor your mother and father like they were infalliable gods
5)Honor your government no matter what(give on to ceasar's what is ceasar's give unto god what is god's)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) I don't swear near people who find it offensive. The rest of the time it offers me a release from anger, tension and stress. Would you rather I bought a shotgun and started shooting?
2) There is absolutly nothing wrong with music that is satanic, has swearing or violence. People listen to music as a form of entertainment, same as watching movies or playing PC games. Plenty of games and movies have satanic features, swearing and violence. Society as a whole determines that there is nothing wrong with mature people listening to and seeing such things. If you don't like it, no-one is forcing you to watch it.
3) What the hell is wrong with you? There is absolutly no problem with masterbation. Sure, if you do it 10 times a day you might start feeling a bit down. Same thing happens if you have sex 10 times a day. There is no differance between masterbation and having sex with someone else: your body treats both exactly the same way. Masturbation provides relief from sexual tension, stress and gives you a surge of pleasure. Call me a devil child if you will but you have no right to govern what I do with my body, especially when it is a legal and entirely non-harmful act. And don't throw that "it hurts your body" crap at me: any doctor worth his medical degree will laugh at such "proof" (yes, I have spoken to doctors about it here in Australia)
4) Ah, so if my father beats me up I should just accept it because he's my father? If my mother sexually abuses me should I just sit back and take it because she's my mother? Mothers and fathers are neither infallible or entirely suited to the job a lot of the time. Blindly accepting what they do to you is both stupid and dangerous. If they show you love and affection, by all means treat them the same. (no, my parents didn't abuse me but I've had friends who were)
5) Man, Hitler would have loved that one. I think that's all that's needed in response to that.
To number 4, the BIble does teach that we should love and forgive. But worship as infallable gods? Not only are people not at all infallable, but the first commandment is "I am the LORD thy God, you shall have no other God before me."
To number 5, Yes, we are supposed to be submissive, but supporting someone that obviously is causing pain, and doing that which is the polar opposite of God's will? No.
But god caused terrible pain and suffering. The destruction of Soddom and Ghomorra (spelling <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ), the drowing of almost the entire world's population, the slaying of Egypt's first born sons, the constant suffering and slavery inflicted on the Israelites, not to mention poor old Job. How can we see such a being as benevolant or loving when he has brought such pain according to your very scriptures?
The reasoning behind the orthodox view of masturbation as sinful is that God has created every part of our bodies to serve a purpose. The purpose of the sexual organs is twofold: Unitive, in so far as they bind us to members of the opposite gender, mirroring the tri-unity of God, and procreative, in so far as they make new life possible, as God does. Masturbation violates both these purposes.
Let me add that in my opinion, this teaching is neither explicitly nor implicitly present in the Scripture, and shouldn't have become dogmatic. It's unfortunate that the Church spends so much more time on sexual issues than Jesus did.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We both know that's the exception, by AID's started because of sin. Someone who was carrying it was responsible for transferring it, and their sin hurt someone else. Even more reason to follow God's law.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, I am thoroughly offended. I don't think I will read this thread anymore. This is exactly the kind of close minded attitude I didn't expect. "Sin" is subjective. To impose your world view on anothers actions by calling them "sinful" is borderline on breaking <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=28&t=43638&st=0?entry592956' target='_blank'>Discussion Forum Rules</a>. (number 2). Wow, so basically you are saying they got what they deserved?
*mutters to self and walks away*
Second, looking at the <a href='http://www.avert.org/worldstats.htm' target='_blank'>statistics</a>, it is hard to deny that a drugfree life of strict heterosexual monogamy/celebacy, such as taught by Christianity, will eliminate all primary transmission modes of AIDS.
Sex is a primary transmission mode of AIDS. If you cut that out, the race dies. So.... No, I'm afraid not. Homosexuality is no worse or better than bisexuality or heterosexuality.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then why is it pleasurable? If it only serves procreative and binding purposes, why make it give us a huge surge of pleasure?
On the subject, I have a fiancee. We have sex often, using contraception, and we have both decided that neither of us wants children. We love each other without question: she means more to me than life itself. So are we violating your god's greater plan by showing our love for one another physically? Are you saying our lovemaking serves no purpose? We both feel emotionally closer when we make love, and its one of the most wonderful ways to show your mutual love.
Are my parents going to burn in your hell because my father had his tubes snipped after they had 2 children and decided they didn't want any more? They have incredible love for one another; yet because they demonstrate that love to one another physically you're saying that they're damned?
Good thing I don't believe in god. Now I'm going to bed. With my fiancee. Yes, we live in what you would term "sin". And you know what? I wouldn't trade her for anything you or your god could offer me.
2)Music that is satanic, has swearing, violence, or at least does not bother praising god.
3)Masturbation
4)Honor your mother and father like they were infalliable gods
5)Honor your government no matter what(give on to ceasar's what is ceasar's give unto god what is god's)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) I don't swear near people who find it offensive. The rest of the time it offers me a release from anger, tension and stress. Would you rather I bought a shotgun and started shooting?
2) There is absolutly nothing wrong with music that is satanic, has swearing or violence. People listen to music as a form of entertainment, same as watching movies or playing PC games. Plenty of games and movies have satanic features, swearing and violence. Society as a whole determines that there is nothing wrong with mature people listening to and seeing such things. If you don't like it, no-one is forcing you to watch it.
3) What the hell is wrong with you? There is absolutly no problem with masterbation. Sure, if you do it 10 times a day you might start feeling a bit down. Same thing happens if you have sex 10 times a day. There is no differance between masterbation and having sex with someone else: your body treats both exactly the same way. Masturbation provides relief from sexual tension, stress and gives you a surge of pleasure. Call me a devil child if you will but you have no right to govern what I do with my body, especially when it is a legal and entirely non-harmful act. And don't throw that "it hurts your body" crap at me: any doctor worth his medical degree will laugh at such "proof" (yes, I have spoken to doctors about it here in Australia)
4) Ah, so if my father beats me up I should just accept it because he's my father? If my mother sexually abuses me should I just sit back and take it because she's my mother? Mothers and fathers are neither infallible or entirely suited to the job a lot of the time. Blindly accepting what they do to you is both stupid and dangerous. If they show you love and affection, by all means treat them the same. (no, my parents didn't abuse me but I've had friends who were)
5) Man, Hitler would have loved that one. I think that's all that's needed in response to that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you misread that post.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I just feel there are alot of unharmful or debateable behaviors that might be forbidden by the bible,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He thinks that those issues are okay, not evil.
2)Music that is satanic, has swearing, violence, or at least does not bother praising god.
3)Masturbation
4)Honor your mother and father like they were infalliable gods
5)Honor your government no matter what(give on to ceasar's what is ceasar's give unto god what is god's) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1)I only swear out of anger or when I feel like I need to express something to a greater extent with a foul adjective. I don't see no reason not to swear unless you imply it to some other life form.
2)There are so many different types of individuals in the world in which different types of music serve. Everyone should be able to listen to whatever music they want, because it is their life.
3)It is only human nature to masturbate and release sexual tension, feel good and not impregenate someone else, plus it cleans the prostate gland. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> No, but I don't see a problem in masturbation unless you think of some lady while your doing it. It is possible not to think of girls while doing it. This is something even animals do and I don't have a problem if people are doing it, it is their life.
4)Although I try to practice this one a lot, most of the times I fail, because I am not perfect in following codes and conducts 24/7. All humans are not perfect.
5)I honor that.
A lot of people don't read The Bible, they just hear some snippet from a fundamentalist Chrisitian and they judge it by that. Basically it goes back in forth of religious man judging the non-religious man based on his beliefs, and non-religious man judging religious man based his beliefs.
I don't know God's intentions or his plans for any of us after we die. I just believe that a lot of the things written in The New Testament are describing a road to God.
First off, capitalize the G in "God" when you are referring to the God of Judaisim and Christianity.
Reason: A god would be like Zeus or Althena or Hermes, as in there is more then one of them. However, you capitalize the G in monotheistic religons.
Second, all those people had what was coming to them, and they were all offered a chance to evade God's rightous wrath.
Sodom and Gomorrah:
Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous Genesis 18:19-21
Far be it from you to do such a thing-to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge [1] of all the earth do right?"
The LORD said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake." Genesis 18: 25-26
Noah's arc:
God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. Genesis 6:12-13
Note: Noah and his family survive.
Egypt's first born son slaying:
Basically, because of Pharoh's stubborness God had to do a lot of killing to free the Isrealites; however, he provides a way out by having people put lamb's blood on the door frame.
Isrealites:
There are lot's of verses about them. Basically, whenever they would blatantly go off and sin against God, God punished them and <b>provides a way out via the Prophets.</b>
Essentially, God always provides a way out for His "suffering He causes."
I believe Ryo's point was that he doesn't need a religion to govern his life. That he can be a respectable moral person without those constraints.