MartOrigin of SUYFJoin Date: 2002-02-26Member: 248Members
edited August 2003
Any 'God' that believes you have sinned from birth and that you are responsible for some centuries old sin really can't be all that great.
Eve + Apple = Entire human race in 'Sin Debt' from birth. GG Controlling unforgiving higher force.
And Eple, have you seen the most recent TV version of Noah's Ark? (Featuring the old guy from Mission Impossible and the British one from Angel.) Amusing to watch, especially when God decides not to eradicate the human race because Noah made him chuckle (This isn't poking fun at religion at all, more poking fun at TV renditions of biblical stories.)
<!--QuoteBegin--Mart+Aug 25 2003, 06:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mart @ Aug 25 2003, 06:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Any 'God' that believes you have sinned from birth and that you are responsible for some centuries old sin really can't be all that great.
Eve + Apple = Entire human race in 'Sin Debt' from birth. GG Controlling unforgiving higher force. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Eve + Apple is by most regarded as metaphoric. The people of the world has chosen to take their own actions, in the spirit of God or not. Humans have been given free will to such an extent that we are allowed to choose wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin--Mart+Aug 25 2003, 06:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mart @ Aug 25 2003, 06:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And Eple, have you seen the most recent TV version of Noah's Ark? (Featuring the old guy from Mission Impossible and the British one from Angel.) Amusing to watch, especially when God decides not to eradicate the human race because Noah made him chuckle (This isn't poking fun at religion at all, more poking fun at TV renditions of biblical stories.) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No, if it is a series I doubt they have it in Norway, if it is a film give me name and I might dl it. Is it fun?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Eve + Apple = Entire human race in 'Sin Debt' from birth. GG Controlling unforgiving higher force.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Source: Luther's Small Catechisim What is original sin? Original sin is that total corruption of our whole human nature which we have inherited from Adam through our parents. Ps. 51:5 I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but Spirit gives birth to spirit.
Rom 5:12 Sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned.
Eph 4:22 Put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts.
What has original sin done to human nature? Original sin A. has brought guilt and condemnation to all people;
Rom. 5:19 Through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners.
Eph. 2:3 Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
B. has left everyone without true fear and love of God, that is, spiritually blind, dead, and enemies of God;
Gen. 8:21 Every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood.
1 Cor. 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Eph. 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins.
Rom. 8:7 The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
C. causes everyone to commit all kinds of actual sins.
Matt. 7:17 Every good tre bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
Gal. 5:19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy, drunkenness, orgies, and the like.
What is actual sin? (this one is easy) Actual sin is every act against a commandment of God in thoughts, desires, words, or deeds.
Made for TV movie... cringefully painful. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> haha! Good times. I must have seen this at some time. HA!
<!--QuoteBegin--Moon+Aug 25 2003, 07:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Moon @ Aug 25 2003, 07:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think at least part of it comes from a desire to control one's own destiny i.e. if I do x and y then I know that I'll get z in an afterlife. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think at least part of it comes from a desire to control one's own destiny i.e. if I do x and y then <b>I'm told</b> I'll get z in an afterlife.
<!--QuoteBegin--Bosnian+Aug 25 2003, 04:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bosnian @ Aug 25 2003, 04:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why do people get so sensitive when someone says the word "sin" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> One of the things I hated most about my church days was the fact that it was repeatedly driven into my skull with a large hammer that I was a sinner, evil etc. So now the word "sin" produces sort of a knee-jerk instant negative reaction.
I do not like the idea of being continually judged and evaluated. It gets old, you know ? "Sin" automatically seems to imply a judgement of sorts.
<!--QuoteBegin--Monkeybonk+Aug 25 2003, 07:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Monkeybonk @ Aug 25 2003, 07:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Moon+Aug 25 2003, 07:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Moon @ Aug 25 2003, 07:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think at least part of it comes from a desire to control one's own destiny i.e. if I do x and y then I know that I'll get z in an afterlife. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think at least part of it comes from a desire to control one's own destiny i.e. if I do x and y then <b>I'm told</b> I'll get z in an afterlife. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> "I'm told" becomes "I know" for some people. At any rate I think the basic idea is still an issue of having some sort of say into what happens after death. Hence a belief in some sort of "rational" being who will grant you more life if you do things to please "him".
I belive in God. I don't know exactly why, but I do. I don't go to church and I never preach. I don't pray in the evenings and I don't eat less during advent. this is not needed to be a christian, but you must try and be a good human, first and foremost. That, I am.
This has given me a perspective that religion is not such an innocent thing that people use as a crutch. It wastes time, it causes grief, it sucks the enjoyment out of life, it gets in the way of everything. Not all religions are like this, but to me, traditional conservative chrisitianity is.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I find that particularly offensive. Christianity doesn't suck the enjoyment out of life.
Im gonna get labeled a freak for this, so any baptists/christians/ gimme some props, cause im really laying it out here.
When you become a Christian, there is a time in your life where you feel utter despair and realise that you cannot go any further without God and Jesus (sorta redundant, but whatever) in your life, you pray and pray that Jesus will come into your heart and save you from your sins. After this happens, becasue Jesus allways says yes, comes a feeling of overwhelming joy and happiness, and your worldview changes, suddenly alchohol, sex and partying seem less appealing than spending a walk with a girl and respecting her body. Suddenly all the sins and temptations become undesireable, and you no longer feel compelled to participate in them. And for a while your a zealot, you change your lifestyle to glorify God and to walk in His way. After this, it is a struggle to maintain this lifestyle, but it is a joyous journey to love Christ and to know Him better. I cannot tell you the happiness i have when i sit down for my prayer time that hour every morning, and devote my thoughts to the Lord. He speaks to me about my troubles that i lift up to him, and in my time of meditation, reveals ways i can be nearer to Him. He comforts me in my times of need, and he encourages me when im doing well. He inspires me to write poetry and songs. He is my Lord and Savior.
Some people call it a "come to Jesus" moment, and you can never really understand till you have one, I know that before, I had tried to take my own life, failed, and sat in despair most of the time, but that one night at Falls Creek, everything changed.
and THAT, my friends, is why I belive. I accepted God, and it has made all the difference.
<!--QuoteBegin--Eplekongen+Aug 25 2003, 06:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Eplekongen @ Aug 25 2003, 06:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yeah, ok. Please do not mix up the Israel's god and the christian's god. (and please do not take me for not captalizing the "G", it is here used as "someones" god, not God) The christian god does not kill people, easy as pie. He does not. He let people die from their own faults and doings, but not by his hand. Israel's God killed, he also made them go to war. And about Nohas Ark, he swore that he would never do anything like that ever again. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Christ states that he was before Abraham, he was the Son of the God of the Israelites.
John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
Because of the trinity, which AFAIK is pretty well accepted here, so I won't go into detail in that, we know that Christ and the Father are one. Which, means taht the Israelite God and the Christan God are the same.
The reason God no longer judges is because there is no need for it. God Judged to keep the nation of Israel pure, so taht they may deliver the Christ. It did serve a purpose, and it wasn't unjustified, as the people judged against were wicked, and were given a chance to repent.
Now though, the Christ has come and risen, so there is only one judgement left for the end times.
Ulatoh, thanks for sharing that, I know it's hard to throw stuff like that out. I appriciate it, if no-one else,
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->comes a feeling of overwhelming joy and happiness, and your worldview changes, suddenly alchohol, sex and partying seem less appealing than spending a walk with a girl and respecting her body.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just want to say ditto. I like women alot, but for completely different reasons I suppose, at least than that of the world. As a Christian guy, I enjoy just being around women, and just taking care of them, even if I know that I will never know them more.
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Aug 22 2003, 10:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Aug 22 2003, 10:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually, modern quantum physics have beholded particles (-> matter) appearing spontaneously, with so far no known source or 'motivation'. I'm sure some of the physcracks around can supply further information. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm going to use this as a launching pad for a really wild tangent. Proceeding.
As he said quantum physics in the 21st century is actually coming very close to proving the religious beliefs of some eastern cultures, namely reincarnation. You've all heard it before energy cannot be created or destroyed, but now there is this thing of matter, and inherently energy appearing from nowhere, for those of you not familiar with reincarnation it is the belief that once you die you will be reborn in another state, the Buddhist take on this is that you will live through as many lives as necessary to attain nirvana. Without delving too far into the subject reincarnation is not restricted by time or space, so there might actually be energy spawning into existence from a different time : O.
Now I personally believe in a higher power, because I don't believe in coincidences. It is too easy to explain away something you don't understand it is much harder to try to understand it. There is so little true knowledge in humanity; we all base our constructions and societies on authoritative knowledge that has been passed down. How do you know your car will run, because it is like all the other cars before it and it has to. How do you know the sun will rise tomorrow because it has everyday before. Most individuals have no knowledge of how most of the things in the world work and yet everything seems to work so perfectly. With so little first hand understanding how could a disaster not happen every other day?
However I don't believe in organized religion and personally feel it's an exploitation of faith. Religion and faith should be something incredibly personal to guide one individual through their lives, and to blow it up to a world wide organization that you "belong" to is in my opinion trivializing the idea. It also puts a middle man between you and your deity because you are no longer believing in it because of your personal relationship with it but because you belong to an organization the holds those beliefs.
I will end with a quote I made up, or maybe stole from somewhere.
The area between bravery and recklessness is gray The line between righteousness and tyranny is thin Find us a guide lest we end up cowards and oppressed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The christian god does not kill people, easy as pie. He does not. He let people die from their own faults and doings, but not by his hand. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How would you explain the death of the fraudulent couple in Acts 5? They die as a direct result of tempting the Holy Spirit, don't they? <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As he said quantum physics in the 21st century is actually coming very close to proving the religious beliefs of some eastern cultures, namely reincarnation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I seriously don't understand how this can be possible. The scientific method is inductive, inferring from observation conclusions about the probability of certain results. Whether reincarnation happens is clearly beyond the reach of this method. I wish physicists would remember to take off their scientists' hat when they start philosophizing.
<!--QuoteBegin--Twex+Aug 26 2003, 02:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex @ Aug 26 2003, 02:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The christian god does not kill people, easy as pie. He does not. He let people die from their own faults and doings, but not by his hand. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How would you explain the death of the fraudulent couple in Acts 5? They die as a direct result of tempting the Holy Spirit, don't they? <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As he said quantum physics in the 21st century is actually coming very close to proving the religious beliefs of some eastern cultures, namely reincarnation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I seriously don't understand how this can be possible. The scientific method is inductive, inferring from observation conclusions about the probability of certain results. Whether reincarnation happens is clearly beyond the reach of this method. I wish physicists would remember to take off their scientists' hat when they start philosophizing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think you might have skimmed over the part where I quoted Nem in reference to the seemingly spontanous creation of matter, that is what I was eluding to in that paragraph, the first sentance was just a set up not the main point....But yes it is hard to understand and that is why you and I are not quantum physicists and that doesn't mean we can dismiss there findings because we don't understand them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->First off, capitalize the G in "God" when you are referring to the God of Judaisim and Christianity. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, for starters it is clear that I am refering to a monotheistic god-figure, and secondly, I do not believe in god. If I believed in it/her/him I would capitalise.
Last time I checked the Bible still contained the old testemant. So if you're gonna say to me "here's this great book that shows god really loves you" then I'm going to take in the whole text. Also, how can you justify the virtual genocide described in said scriptures by simply saying "they sinned"? Killing almost the entire population of earth or the inhabitants of two entire cities is no more justifiable than the Holocaust or the Armenian Christian massacures.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I believe Ryo's point was that he doesn't need a religion to govern his life. That he can be a respectable moral person without those constraints. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Particles into matter ? You're still lacking a creation of particles. I wouldn't be surprised if that was true. Although I doubt there's much information on the matter, If this is a matter of years and not decades, there's still tons of information to be uncovered.
Ryo, the Bible also says God is a just God, who punishes for sins. Noah and his immediate family was saved from death (in the Great Flood), because they were right with God as opposed to the wickedness that was around him, so obviously there <i>was</i> a way out.
The Old Testament has a lot of the "doom and gloom" events that really is a mirror of what every human life is like today. We're sinful and deserve to die and exist in Hell for eternity. The New Testament, however, shares the Gospel that the Old Testament foreshadowed, with the coming of Jesus to the world to make the ultimate sacrifice for our sins. (which in turn, is the reason that animal sacrifices and the like aren't needed anymore...but that's off the topic)
Granted, still to this day people are going to Hell for their unbelief (like the way God punished the sinners in the Old Testament), but belief in Christ's death and resurrection for our sins saves us from that fate. (the way God saved the people who believed in Jesus's coming.)
Summary - The Old Testament/New Testament prechings are a combined effort of Law/Gospel to show that without God, we're lost and condemned to suffering, but simple faith in Him and His work, leads to life and saving.
Here is one of my biggest gripes with christianity:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When you become a Christian, there is a time in your life where you feel utter despair and realise that you cannot go any further without God and Jesus (sorta redundant, but whatever) in your life, you pray and pray that Jesus will come into your heart and save you from your sins. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God accepts all who have sinned and wish to repent. I do not think this is refutable.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Granted, still to this day people are going to Hell for their unbelief (like the way God punished the sinners in the Old Testament), but belief in Christ's death and resurrection for our sins saves us from that fate. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, Jews, Muslims, Buddahists, Hare Krishnas etc are all going to hell? And whats to stop Charles Manson from repenting and going to heaven? Will he see Ghandi?
No one religion is right. Only 33.4% of the world is Christian. <a href='http://www.wnrf.org/cms/next200.shtml' target='_blank'>Source</a> You mean to tell me that 76.6% of the world is going to hell because they are non-believers?
<!--QuoteBegin--Moon+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Moon)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Bosnian+Aug 25 2003, 04:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bosnian @ Aug 25 2003, 04:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why do people get so sensitive when someone says the word "sin" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> One of the things I hated most about my church days was the fact that it was repeatedly driven into my skull with a large hammer that I was a sinner, evil etc. So now the word "sin" produces sort of a knee-jerk instant negative reaction.
I do not like the idea of being continually judged and evaluated. It gets old, you know ? "Sin" automatically seems to imply a judgement of sorts.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh , this remembers me of my "atheist baptism" , I came to an protestant believer on proselytism duty once , she guided me to the "temple" - no more than a conference room in fact. The sober , rational aspect of this room comforted me - it's not like they are going to imprison me in a dark cell to serve the sect. When the ceremony started , the father was quoting random parts of the Bible , and came to the Jacob & Esau's Birthright thing. It was an exemple of how repenting would make God forgive you from your sins. Pretty nonsensical to me... The believer handed me a "Shortened Bible" - booklet with the relevant passages , some kind of "Christian's Manual"... despite its size the content was still highly boring.
Then a few young actors represented a metaphorical parody of the atheist's fate - Jesus knocking on a heathen's door , the heathen dismissing His demand ; atheist dies , and knock on the Heaven's door , with Jesus dismissing his demand. The young believers (barely teenagers , average of 8 years I'd say) laughed at this little scene of course , then proceeded to chant a few ridiculous verses thanking God from curing diseases and whatnot. I remember that theses songs were particulary agressive towards the non-believers "with hearts full of hate"...
Then came the Prayer. At the father's word everyone was bending their heads if not completely bowing before the Lord , saying "Amen" at an alarming rate. The believer who brought me here also wanted me to bow , like others. I did not.
I thought "So , it's easy , I made the error of only listening to my own judgement and not believe in anyone's arbitrary teachings , why not repair this and escape damnation by praising the Lord now so He will forgive me ? It's just No , the most valuable thing my family brought to me is my own pride and I won't surrender my will for such pathetic reasons. Others are bowing ? Fine , stay in blissfull ignorance , weaklings ! The ways they were kept prisonner of this kind of narrow mindsets are grossly obvious , they are exploiting the innate lack of self esteem and the unsecure feeling of the poor folks , trying to replace the real , unpredictable male parent by a reliable , servile image of the Father... Sorry , that is too ridiculous for me , I don't buy it"
As I checked the clock , seeing how much time I wasted here , I found the courage to say to the believer who brought me there , in a slightly sadistic way : "Thank you for helping me find myself , I've always been an atheist by default. I am now a convinced atheist"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ryo, the Bible also says God is a just God, who punishes for sins. Noah and his immediate family was saved from death (in the Great Flood), because they were right with God as opposed to the wickedness that was around him, so obviously there was a way out. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh right! Yeah just be a member of Noah's family and you're saved! To the remainding tens of millions of people: too bad! Yet you expect us to believe that the same god who would almost wipe out the human race is just, wise and benevolant?! There is nothing just in the slaughter of countless millions, if your holy books are to be believed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Old Testament has a lot of the "doom and gloom" events that really is a mirror of what every human life is like today. We're sinful and deserve to die and exist in Hell for eternity. The New Testament, however, shares the Gospel that the Old Testament foreshadowed, with the coming of Jesus to the world to make the ultimate sacrifice for our sins. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know, when you study history like I do, you see some sick things. You see people butchering others, you see genocides, wars, persecution and endless violence. But you also see beauty. You see works of art so perfect that you're lost for words. You read poetry and literature that recount the emotions of people gone for hundreds of years. You hear music so breathtaking you cry. You come to realise that although humanity has done, and continues to do, terrible things, we are still capable of incredible love and creation.
Now why should a species that can produce Bethovan's Fifth Symphony be damned for all eternity? Why should a people who produced the poems of Keets, or the epic world of Tolkein, be condemed to endless suffering. Why should a society that gave us the Mona Lisa be cast asunder? Yes, mankind does bad things. But it's not all bad. In fact, a lot of it is good.
How can you sit there and actually say that the entire human race is worthless? That the only way we can "atone" for our "evil" deeds is to submit to an authority that itself commited acts of unjust "evil". Love, justice, understanding, oh and by the way if you don't believe in us you're going to hell forever. You say your god gave us free choice. Then why not give us the free choice to believe in what we want.
As is quite known, the depiction of God during the Old Testament can be seen as quite ruthless in his dishing out of punishment. Could it be simply because the physical state of people weren't completely important to God considering the "bigger plan" he had in mind (coming of Jesus)?
While it's only a theory brought up by some theologists, the Apostle's Creed states: <i>"was crucified, died, and was buried, on the third day, he rose again</i>. It has been suggested that the time he remained as "dead", he prached to those who had already died before him. Jesus death was not only for his present and the future, but also for the <b>past</b> as well. So would it come as to no surprise that lost lives didn't meant as much?
It's only a <i>theory</i>, but it seems to make sense, cause how the hell else would people from the past (other than the Israelites) know that there was such thing as a Messiah?
Faith can be a major pain sometimes when no form of explanation is accompanied...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, for starters it is clear that I am refering to a monotheistic god-figure, and secondly, I do not believe in god. If I believed in it/her/him I would capitalise. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the English language, you capitalize the first letter of people's names. Example: Kyle, Stewie, Vishnu, God. You don't really need to believe in Vishnu or God to capitalize either. However, since people DO have a hard time admitting they are wrong on these forums, i'm going to just pretend you do capitalize.
I think Ryo's main problem is that he thinks that God actually owes something to the human race, when in fact, is the complete opposite. God created us, we went out of our way and forsook Him by not doing what he wanted us to do.
Rom 3:5-20 But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" Why not say--as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved. What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips." "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness." "Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know." "There is no fear of God before their eyes." Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh right! Yeah just be a member of Noah's family and you're saved! To the remainding tens of millions of people: too bad! Yet you expect us to believe that the same god who would almost wipe out the human race is just, wise and benevolant?! There is nothing just in the slaughter of countless millions, if your holy books are to be believed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Consider the human race lucky that there was at least one good family to repopulate us.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now why should a species that can produce Bethovan's Fifth Symphony be damned for all eternity? Why should a people who produced the poems of Keets, or the epic world of Tolkein, be condemed to endless suffering. Why should a society that gave us the Mona Lisa be cast asunder? Yes, mankind does bad things. But it's not all bad. In fact, a lot of it is good. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't matter how much good you do, that is NOT the way to get to heaven.
Eph. 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast.
John 3:16-18 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. <b>Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. </b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How can you sit there and actually say that the entire human race is worthless?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ephesians 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins.
Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
In other words without Jesus to forgive our sins, we are dead and ugly with sin to God
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->is to submit to an authority that itself commited acts of unjust "evil". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God is just, He does NOT make mistakes. Everything you classify as "evil" that God did was justified, and He always always ALWAYS provides a way out.
----------------------- In response to Torak...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, Jews, Muslims, Buddahists, Hare Krishnas etc are all going to hell? And whats to stop Charles Manson from repenting and going to heaven? Will he see Ghandi?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, heaven is a reserved priveledge to those who trusted The Messiah would come (Ancient Jews) or those who believe Jesus will forgive them of their sins, making them right with God (Christians). Whats to stop Charles Manson from repenting? My guess would be his basic evil nature; however, if he were to repent and truly be sorry for his sins and ask Jesus into his heart, he will go to heaven. (Note: Ghandi would only be in heaven if he trusted in Jesus to take him there...and I think he was budhist so, no, Ghandi is not in heaven... Unfortunatly.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You mean to tell me that 76.6% of the world is going to hell because they are non-believers? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sadly, yes. It's our job as Christians to spread the Good News as much as possible, kinda like what i'm doing right now.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Aug 26 2003, 01:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Aug 26 2003, 01:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You say your god gave us free choice. Then why not give us the free choice to believe in what we want. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, our <b>G</b>od did give us free choice. If He didn't give us free choice then we'd just be a huge astronomical version of the game, The Sims. This free choice is what caused the first sin. (the fruit from the tree in the Garden Of Eden, tempted by Satan) In fact, this free choice the angels once had ALSO let Satan come to be what he is to this very day. Satan <i>was</i> one of God's angels, but broke away because of his free will to choose whatever he wanted to do, in this case, rebel against God.
Obviously, no one is forcing you to believe anything, and if they did, we'd have a world with 100% Christianity, and we know just from this Discussion thread, that isn't the case.
As for the other points, Crisqo already went above and beyond what I could explain, so just uhh...look at that.
I'm going to avoid flame bait here so sorry if this seems a bit of a stark post, I'm trimming some fat. If you are a person who takes what is written in the Bible literarly, as in you believe Adam and Eve existed and that there was a serpant that spoke to them and tempted them and that is where original sin comes from, if that is the case there are a few things you should take into consideration. There was a time where the Bible was the only accepted reading material in most of Europe (most commonly known as the Dark Ages) this is where knowledge of science, math, etc. was greatly limited and people were educated strictly in relegion. During this time the Bible was translated from over 300 languages by hand, have you ever written a rough draft of an essay by hand that had no spelling, grammar, or other errors? Now imagine this done to a voume nearly 3000 pages long, that was translated countless times and edited even more times depending on what the hierarchy thought should be in it. During this time is when most of todays beliefs and followings formed, before then there were probably more pagans than Christans, and since education was limited to relegion and it's subdivisions that is what parents taught there children, and them theirs.
But this isn't a why should people not believe in a god thread so I'll stop there. Although I will say confidently that the Christian god is not the only diety out there and not everyone is obligated to treat it as such.
Now I'm getting a little creeped out by my fellow believers. How can anyone take The Old Testament seriously? At most, the passages are metaphorical lessons. The whole idea of God being angry then becoming nice is kind of degrading to God.
Quote (Crisqo,Aug 26 2003, 09:32 PM) <u>______________________________</u> I think Ryo's main problem is that he thinks that God actually owes something to the human race, when in fact, is the complete opposite. God created us, we went out of our way and forsook Him by not doing what he wanted us to do. <u>_______________________________________________________</u>
So , God gave us free will for the sole purpose of being able to disobey him so that he can punish us to the last generation ? Sorry , that's outright sadism.
Quote <u>______</u> Rom 3:5-20 But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" Why not say--as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved. What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips." "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness." "Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know." "There is no fear of God before their eyes." Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. <u>______________________________________________________</u>
Have you ever seen a city so filthy that not a good soul can be found ? This kind of argument might have been used to justify nuking the whole USSR , you know.
Quote <u>______</u> Quote(Ryo-Ohki) <u>____________</u> Oh right! Yeah just be a member of Noah's family and you're saved! To the remainding tens of millions of people: too bad! Yet you expect us to believe that the same god who would almost wipe out the human race is just, wise and benevolant?! There is nothing just in the slaughter of countless millions, if your holy books are to be believed. <u>_______________________________________________________</u>
Consider the human race lucky that there was at least one good family to repopulate us. <u>_______________________________________________________</u>
Why lucky ? If no one was left alive , God would have been left disappointed with His creation and there wouldn't have been any religion war. Better like that.
Again , justifying genocides using such dodgy reasons is questionable even for a deity.
Quote <u>____</u> Quote (Ryo-Ohki) <u>____________</u> Now why should a species that can produce Bethovan's Fifth Symphony be damned for all eternity? Why should a people who produced the poems of Keets, or the epic world of Tolkein, be condemed to endless suffering. Why should a society that gave us the Mona Lisa be cast asunder? Yes, mankind does bad things. But it's not all bad. In fact, a lot of it is good. <u>_______________________________________________</u>
It doesn't matter how much good you do, that is NOT the way to get to heaven.
Eph. 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast. <u>________________________________________________________</u>
Does that mean God doesn't freaking care of our hard work , and only wants us to worship him all day while multiplying to feed him with more souls ? That would be a sad deity for sure.
Quote <u>______</u> John 3:16-18 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. <b>Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. </b> <u>_______________________________________________________</u>
How arbitrary. Have you ever considered the cases of people who were actually out of reach of the "Good News" and unable to hear the Messiah ? Yes , I'm speaking of the "pagans" living at the other end of the world back then , they didn't have a single chance to hear about the Christ , yet were condemned to burn in Hell , whatever constructive lives they had.
This makes the Christian God unfair and intolerant.
Quote <u>_______</u>
QUOTE (Ryo-Ohki) <u>_______________</u> How can you sit there and actually say that the entire human race is worthless? <u>_______________________________________________________</u>
Ephesians 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins.
Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
In other words without Jesus to forgive our sins, we are dead and ugly with sin to God
Theses Scriptures quoting is getting on my nerves... really , I wouldn't shake hands with a Christian believing in such things. The Bible clearly states that we are intrinsically bad. That's typical of the conservative anti-life attitude. Big Brother himself would have been more forgiving and understanding...
Quote <u>_____</u> Quote (Ryo-Ohki) <u>______________</u> is to submit to an authority that itself commited acts of unjust "evil". <u>_______________________________________________________</u>
God is just, He does NOT make mistakes. Everything you classify as "evil" that God did was justified, and He always always ALWAYS provides a way out. <u>_______________________________________________________</u>
Sorry , the passages you quoted mention things that couldn't be rationally justified. Admiring such actions looks utterly absurd to us.
Quote <u>_____</u> Quote (Torak) <u>____________</u> So, Jews, Muslims, Buddahists, Hare Krishnas etc are all going to hell? And whats to stop Charles Manson from repenting and going to heaven? Will he see Ghandi? <u>_______________________________________________________</u>
Yes, heaven is a reserved priveledge to those who trusted The Messiah would come (Ancient Jews) or those who believe Jesus will forgive them of their sins, making them right with God (Christians). Whats to stop Charles Manson from repenting? My guess would be his basic evil nature; however, if he were to repent and truly be sorry for his sins and ask Jesus into his heart, he will go to heaven. (Note: Ghandi would only be in heaven if he trusted in Jesus to take him there...and I think he was budhist so, no, Ghandi is not in heaven... Unfortunatly. <u>_______________________________________________________</u>
Why would God accept such absurd cases ? He's supposed to be forgiving , why should He require everyone to <i>only</i> believe in the Christ to give them eternal life ? As stated here , people who contributed the most to humankind's happyness can burn in Hell for not believing in the Christian God , but filthy criminals who had the luck to meet a priest and convert to the right religion would be rewarded by eternal life in Heaven ?
Is your God so proud of His Religion that He dismisses others , and gives priviledges to thoses who found the Right Way ? I can admit that deities create the Evil to compensate for Good , add subtle curses to their worlds like Entropy so that things are more interesting , but being biased to a branch of your own children and intolerant towards others is irresponsible , and that's not meant to be any deity's attribute.
My opinion is that the first believers invented this set of rules , to make proselytism easier and prevent heresy.
Quote <u>______</u> Quote (Torak) <u>___________</u> You mean to tell me that 76.6% of the world is going to hell because they are non-believers? <u>_______________________________________________________</u> Sadly, yes. It's our job as Christians to spread the Good News as much as possible, kinda like what i'm doing right now. <u>_______________________________________________________</u>
This is nonsense. Why should anyone believe in a foreign God with cryptic teachings referring to unknown civilizations , and abandon the ancient deities that ruled countless generation's lives ? The Christian religion was forced on third world people , not gifted. Since the ancient cult's memories have been destroyed by european missionaries , theses people now live with this religion by default , and it didn't make their lives brighter really.
EDIT : phew , the Quote tree got martyrized a bit too much , I had to quote things manually.
<!--QuoteBegin--Bosnian+Aug 26 2003, 01:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bosnian @ Aug 26 2003, 01:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now I'm getting a little creeped out by my fellow believers. How can anyone take The Old Testament seriously? At most, the passages are metaphorical lessons. The whole idea of God being angry then becoming nice is kind of degrading to God. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Eh? Was that directed towards my post?
While I've come to the realization that the verses in Genesis mainly concerning creation is symbolic, I was still under the impression that God's wrath was much more evident prior to Jesus' coming, there was no way sins could be attoned (except through livestock, which was still insufficent as a sacrifice for sins, but better than nothing). Maybe you consider a lot more of the Old Testament to be metaphorical than fact than I do, but I consider it fact that prior to Jesus' coming, God did give orders for his people to kill. After Jesus' coming, he was able to forgive, so his wrath was more... withheld (best word I can think of).
I know it doesn't work to put things in chronological order since God doesn't "follow time", but that's the best hypothesis I can come up with in the "wrathful at first, a lot more forgiving after" image.
Comments
Eve + Apple = Entire human race in 'Sin Debt' from birth. GG Controlling unforgiving higher force.
And Eple, have you seen the most recent TV version of Noah's Ark? (Featuring the old guy from Mission Impossible and the British one from Angel.) Amusing to watch, especially when God decides not to eradicate the human race because Noah made him chuckle (This isn't poking fun at religion at all, more poking fun at TV renditions of biblical stories.)
Eve + Apple = Entire human race in 'Sin Debt' from birth. GG Controlling unforgiving higher force. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eve + Apple is by most regarded as metaphoric. The people of the world has chosen to take their own actions, in the spirit of God or not. Humans have been given free will to such an extent that we are allowed to choose wrong.
No, if it is a series I doubt they have it in Norway, if it is a film give me name and I might dl it. Is it fun?
Made for TV movie... cringefully painful.
Source: Luther's Small Catechisim
What is original sin?
Original sin is that total corruption of our whole human nature which we have inherited from Adam through our parents.
Ps. 51:5 I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but Spirit gives birth to spirit.
Rom 5:12 Sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned.
Eph 4:22 Put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts.
What has original sin done to human nature?
Original sin
A. has brought guilt and condemnation to all people;
Rom. 5:19 Through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners.
Eph. 2:3 Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
B. has left everyone without true fear and love of God, that is, spiritually blind, dead, and enemies of God;
Gen. 8:21 Every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood.
1 Cor. 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Eph. 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins.
Rom. 8:7 The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
C. causes everyone to commit all kinds of actual sins.
Matt. 7:17 Every good tre bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
Gal. 5:19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy, drunkenness, orgies, and the like.
What is actual sin? (this one is easy)
Actual sin is every act against a commandment of God in thoughts, desires, words, or deeds.
Made for TV movie... cringefully painful. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
haha! Good times. I must have seen this at some time. HA!
Why does one believe ?
I think at least part of it comes from a desire to control one's own destiny i.e. if I do x and y then I know that I'll get z in an afterlife.
I think at least part of it comes from a desire to control one's own destiny i.e. if I do x and y then <b>I'm told</b> I'll get z in an afterlife.
One of the things I hated most about my church days was the fact that it was repeatedly driven into my skull with a large hammer that I was a sinner, evil etc. So now the word "sin" produces sort of a knee-jerk instant negative reaction.
I do not like the idea of being continually judged and evaluated. It gets old, you know ? "Sin" automatically seems to imply a judgement of sorts.
I think at least part of it comes from a desire to control one's own destiny i.e. if I do x and y then <b>I'm told</b> I'll get z in an afterlife. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"I'm told" becomes "I know" for some people. At any rate I think the basic idea is still an issue of having some sort of say into what happens after death. Hence a belief in some sort of "rational" being who will grant you more life if you do things to please "him".
This has given me a perspective that religion is not such an innocent thing that people use as a crutch. It wastes time, it causes grief, it sucks the enjoyment out of life, it gets in the way of everything. Not all religions are like this, but to me, traditional conservative chrisitianity is.
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I find that particularly offensive. Christianity doesn't suck the enjoyment out of life.
Im gonna get labeled a freak for this, so any baptists/christians/ gimme some props, cause im really laying it out here.
When you become a Christian, there is a time in your life where you feel utter despair and realise that you cannot go any further without God and Jesus (sorta redundant, but whatever) in your life, you pray and pray that Jesus will come into your heart and save you from your sins. After this happens, becasue Jesus allways says yes, comes a feeling of overwhelming joy and happiness, and your worldview changes, suddenly alchohol, sex and partying seem less appealing than spending a walk with a girl and respecting her body. Suddenly all the sins and temptations become undesireable, and you no longer feel compelled to participate in them. And for a while your a zealot, you change your lifestyle to glorify God and to walk in His way. After this, it is a struggle to maintain this lifestyle, but it is a joyous journey to love Christ and to know Him better. I cannot tell you the happiness i have when i sit down for my prayer time that hour every morning, and devote my thoughts to the Lord. He speaks to me about my troubles that i lift up to him, and in my time of meditation, reveals ways i can be nearer to Him. He comforts me in my times of need, and he encourages me when im doing well. He inspires me to write poetry and songs. He is my Lord and Savior.
Some people call it a "come to Jesus" moment, and you can never really understand till you have one, I know that before, I had tried to take my own life, failed, and sat in despair most of the time, but that one night at Falls Creek, everything changed.
and THAT, my friends, is why I belive. I accepted God, and it has made all the difference.
Christ states that he was before Abraham, he was the Son of the God of the Israelites.
John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
Because of the trinity, which AFAIK is pretty well accepted here, so I won't go into detail in that, we know that Christ and the Father are one. Which, means taht the Israelite God and the Christan God are the same.
The reason God no longer judges is because there is no need for it. God Judged to keep the nation of Israel pure, so taht they may deliver the Christ. It did serve a purpose, and it wasn't unjustified, as the people judged against were wicked, and were given a chance to repent.
Now though, the Christ has come and risen, so there is only one judgement left for the end times.
Ulatoh, thanks for sharing that, I know it's hard to throw stuff like that out. I appriciate it, if no-one else,
I just want to say ditto. I like women alot, but for completely different reasons I suppose, at least than that of the world. As a Christian guy, I enjoy just being around women, and just taking care of them, even if I know that I will never know them more.
I'm going to use this as a launching pad for a really wild tangent. Proceeding.
As he said quantum physics in the 21st century is actually coming very close to proving the religious beliefs of some eastern cultures, namely reincarnation. You've all heard it before energy cannot be created or destroyed, but now there is this thing of matter, and inherently energy appearing from nowhere, for those of you not familiar with reincarnation it is the belief that once you die you will be reborn in another state, the Buddhist take on this is that you will live through as many lives as necessary to attain nirvana. Without delving too far into the subject reincarnation is not restricted by time or space, so there might actually be energy spawning into existence from a different time : O.
Now I personally believe in a higher power, because I don't believe in coincidences. It is too easy to explain away something you don't understand it is much harder to try to understand it. There is so little true knowledge in humanity; we all base our constructions and societies on authoritative knowledge that has been passed down. How do you know your car will run, because it is like all the other cars before it and it has to. How do you know the sun will rise tomorrow because it has everyday before. Most individuals have no knowledge of how most of the things in the world work and yet everything seems to work so perfectly. With so little first hand understanding how could a disaster not happen every other day?
However I don't believe in organized religion and personally feel it's an exploitation of faith. Religion and faith should be something incredibly personal to guide one individual through their lives, and to blow it up to a world wide organization that you "belong" to is in my opinion trivializing the idea. It also puts a middle man between you and your deity because you are no longer believing in it because of your personal relationship with it but because you belong to an organization the holds those beliefs.
I will end with a quote I made up, or maybe stole from somewhere.
The area between bravery and recklessness is gray
The line between righteousness and tyranny is thin
Find us a guide lest we end up cowards and oppressed.
How would you explain the death of the fraudulent couple in Acts 5? They die as a direct result of tempting the Holy Spirit, don't they?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As he said quantum physics in the 21st century is actually coming very close to proving the religious beliefs of some eastern cultures, namely reincarnation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I seriously don't understand how this can be possible. The scientific method is inductive, inferring from observation conclusions about the probability of certain results. Whether reincarnation happens is clearly beyond the reach of this method. I wish physicists would remember to take off their scientists' hat when they start philosophizing.
How would you explain the death of the fraudulent couple in Acts 5? They die as a direct result of tempting the Holy Spirit, don't they?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As he said quantum physics in the 21st century is actually coming very close to proving the religious beliefs of some eastern cultures, namely reincarnation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I seriously don't understand how this can be possible. The scientific method is inductive, inferring from observation conclusions about the probability of certain results. Whether reincarnation happens is clearly beyond the reach of this method. I wish physicists would remember to take off their scientists' hat when they start philosophizing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you might have skimmed over the part where I quoted Nem in reference to the seemingly spontanous creation of matter, that is what I was eluding to in that paragraph, the first sentance was just a set up not the main point....But yes it is hard to understand and that is why you and I are not quantum physicists and that doesn't mean we can dismiss there findings because we don't understand them.
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No, for starters it is clear that I am refering to a monotheistic god-figure, and secondly, I do not believe in god. If I believed in it/her/him I would capitalise.
Last time I checked the Bible still contained the old testemant. So if you're gonna say to me "here's this great book that shows god really loves you" then I'm going to take in the whole text. Also, how can you justify the virtual genocide described in said scriptures by simply saying "they sinned"? Killing almost the entire population of earth or the inhabitants of two entire cities is no more justifiable than the Holocaust or the Armenian Christian massacures.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I believe Ryo's point was that he doesn't need a religion to govern his life. That he can be a respectable moral person without those constraints.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thankyou. Yes, this was the point I was making.
The Old Testament has a lot of the "doom and gloom" events that really is a mirror of what every human life is like today. We're sinful and deserve to die and exist in Hell for eternity. The New Testament, however, shares the Gospel that the Old Testament foreshadowed, with the coming of Jesus to the world to make the ultimate sacrifice for our sins. (which in turn, is the reason that animal sacrifices and the like aren't needed anymore...but that's off the topic)
Granted, still to this day people are going to Hell for their unbelief (like the way God punished the sinners in the Old Testament), but belief in Christ's death and resurrection for our sins saves us from that fate. (the way God saved the people who believed in Jesus's coming.)
Summary - The Old Testament/New Testament prechings are a combined effort of Law/Gospel to show that without God, we're lost and condemned to suffering, but simple faith in Him and His work, leads to life and saving.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When you become a Christian, there is a time in your life where you feel utter despair and realise that you cannot go any further without God and Jesus (sorta redundant, but whatever) in your life, you pray and pray that Jesus will come into your heart and save you from your sins. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God accepts all who have sinned and wish to repent. I do not think this is refutable.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Granted, still to this day people are going to Hell for their unbelief (like the way God punished the sinners in the Old Testament), but belief in Christ's death and resurrection for our sins saves us from that fate. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, Jews, Muslims, Buddahists, Hare Krishnas etc are all going to hell? And whats to stop Charles Manson from repenting and going to heaven? Will he see Ghandi?
No one religion is right. Only 33.4% of the world is Christian.
<a href='http://www.wnrf.org/cms/next200.shtml' target='_blank'>Source</a>
You mean to tell me that 76.6% of the world is going to hell because they are non-believers?
<!--QuoteBegin--Bosnian+Aug 25 2003, 04:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bosnian @ Aug 25 2003, 04:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why do people get so sensitive when someone says the word "sin" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One of the things I hated most about my church days was the fact that it was repeatedly driven into my skull with a large hammer that I was a sinner, evil etc. So now the word "sin" produces sort of a knee-jerk instant negative reaction.
I do not like the idea of being continually judged and evaluated. It gets old, you know ? "Sin" automatically seems to imply a judgement of sorts.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh , this remembers me of my "atheist baptism" , I came to an protestant believer on proselytism duty once , she guided me to the "temple" - no more than a conference room in fact. The sober , rational aspect of this room comforted me - it's not like they are going to imprison me in a dark cell to serve the sect.
When the ceremony started , the father was quoting random parts of the Bible , and came to the Jacob & Esau's Birthright thing. It was an exemple of how repenting would make God forgive you from your sins. Pretty nonsensical to me...
The believer handed me a "Shortened Bible" - booklet with the relevant passages , some kind of "Christian's Manual"... despite its size the content was still highly boring.
Then a few young actors represented a metaphorical parody of the atheist's fate - Jesus knocking on a heathen's door , the heathen dismissing His demand ; atheist dies , and knock on the Heaven's door , with Jesus dismissing his demand. The young believers (barely teenagers , average of 8 years I'd say) laughed at this little scene of course , then proceeded to chant a few ridiculous verses thanking God from curing diseases and whatnot. I remember that theses songs were particulary agressive towards the non-believers "with hearts full of hate"...
Then came the Prayer. At the father's word everyone was bending their heads if not completely bowing before the Lord , saying "Amen" at an alarming rate. The believer who brought me here also wanted me to bow , like others. I did not.
I thought "So , it's easy , I made the error of only listening to my own judgement and not believe in anyone's arbitrary teachings , why not repair this and escape damnation by praising the Lord now so He will forgive me ? It's just No , the most valuable thing my family brought to me is my own pride and I won't surrender my will for such pathetic reasons. Others are bowing ? Fine , stay in blissfull ignorance , weaklings ! The ways they were kept prisonner of this kind of narrow mindsets are grossly obvious , they are exploiting the innate lack of self esteem and the unsecure feeling of the poor folks , trying to replace the real , unpredictable male parent by a reliable , servile image of the Father... Sorry , that is too ridiculous for me , I don't buy it"
As I checked the clock , seeing how much time I wasted here , I found the courage to say to the believer who brought me there , in a slightly sadistic way : "Thank you for helping me find myself , I've always been an atheist by default. I am now a convinced atheist"
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh right! Yeah just be a member of Noah's family and you're saved! To the remainding tens of millions of people: too bad! Yet you expect us to believe that the same god who would almost wipe out the human race is just, wise and benevolant?! There is nothing just in the slaughter of countless millions, if your holy books are to be believed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Old Testament has a lot of the "doom and gloom" events that really is a mirror of what every human life is like today. We're sinful and deserve to die and exist in Hell for eternity. The New Testament, however, shares the Gospel that the Old Testament foreshadowed, with the coming of Jesus to the world to make the ultimate sacrifice for our sins. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know, when you study history like I do, you see some sick things. You see people butchering others, you see genocides, wars, persecution and endless violence. But you also see beauty. You see works of art so perfect that you're lost for words. You read poetry and literature that recount the emotions of people gone for hundreds of years. You hear music so breathtaking you cry. You come to realise that although humanity has done, and continues to do, terrible things, we are still capable of incredible love and creation.
Now why should a species that can produce Bethovan's Fifth Symphony be damned for all eternity? Why should a people who produced the poems of Keets, or the epic world of Tolkein, be condemed to endless suffering. Why should a society that gave us the Mona Lisa be cast asunder? Yes, mankind does bad things. But it's not all bad. In fact, a lot of it is good.
How can you sit there and actually say that the entire human race is worthless? That the only way we can "atone" for our "evil" deeds is to submit to an authority that itself commited acts of unjust "evil". Love, justice, understanding, oh and by the way if you don't believe in us you're going to hell forever. You say your god gave us free choice. Then why not give us the free choice to believe in what we want.
As is quite known, the depiction of God during the Old Testament can be seen as quite ruthless in his dishing out of punishment. Could it be simply because the physical state of people weren't completely important to God considering the "bigger plan" he had in mind (coming of Jesus)?
While it's only a theory brought up by some theologists, the Apostle's Creed states: <i>"was crucified, died, and was buried, on the third day, he rose again</i>. It has been suggested that the time he remained as "dead", he prached to those who had already died before him. Jesus death was not only for his present and the future, but also for the <b>past</b> as well. So would it come as to no surprise that lost lives didn't meant as much?
It's only a <i>theory</i>, but it seems to make sense, cause how the hell else would people from the past (other than the Israelites) know that there was such thing as a Messiah?
Faith can be a major pain sometimes when no form of explanation is accompanied...
In the English language, you capitalize the first letter of people's names. Example: Kyle, Stewie, Vishnu, God. You don't really need to believe in Vishnu or God to capitalize either. However, since people DO have a hard time admitting they are wrong on these forums, i'm going to just pretend you do capitalize.
I think Ryo's main problem is that he thinks that God actually owes something to the human race, when in fact, is the complete opposite. God created us, we went out of our way and forsook Him by not doing what he wanted us to do.
Rom 3:5-20
But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" Why not say--as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.
What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.
As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh right! Yeah just be a member of Noah's family and you're saved! To the remainding tens of millions of people: too bad! Yet you expect us to believe that the same god who would almost wipe out the human race is just, wise and benevolant?! There is nothing just in the slaughter of countless millions, if your holy books are to be believed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Consider the human race lucky that there was at least one good family to repopulate us.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now why should a species that can produce Bethovan's Fifth Symphony be damned for all eternity? Why should a people who produced the poems of Keets, or the epic world of Tolkein, be condemed to endless suffering. Why should a society that gave us the Mona Lisa be cast asunder? Yes, mankind does bad things. But it's not all bad. In fact, a lot of it is good. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't matter how much good you do, that is NOT the way to get to heaven.
Eph. 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast.
John 3:16-18
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. <b>Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. </b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How can you sit there and actually say that the entire human race is worthless?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ephesians 2:1
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins.
Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
In other words without Jesus to forgive our sins, we are dead and ugly with sin to God
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->is to submit to an authority that itself commited acts of unjust "evil". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God is just, He does NOT make mistakes. Everything you classify as "evil" that God did was justified, and He always always ALWAYS provides a way out.
-----------------------
In response to Torak...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, Jews, Muslims, Buddahists, Hare Krishnas etc are all going to hell? And whats to stop Charles Manson from repenting and going to heaven? Will he see Ghandi?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, heaven is a reserved priveledge to those who trusted The Messiah would come (Ancient Jews) or those who believe Jesus will forgive them of their sins, making them right with God (Christians). Whats to stop Charles Manson from repenting? My guess would be his basic evil nature; however, if he were to repent and truly be sorry for his sins and ask Jesus into his heart, he will go to heaven. (Note: Ghandi would only be in heaven if he trusted in Jesus to take him there...and I think he was budhist so, no, Ghandi is not in heaven... Unfortunatly.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You mean to tell me that 76.6% of the world is going to hell because they are non-believers?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sadly, yes. It's our job as Christians to spread the Good News as much as possible, kinda like what i'm doing right now.
Yes, our <b>G</b>od did give us free choice. If He didn't give us free choice then we'd just be a huge astronomical version of the game, The Sims. This free choice is what caused the first sin. (the fruit from the tree in the Garden Of Eden, tempted by Satan) In fact, this free choice the angels once had ALSO let Satan come to be what he is to this very day. Satan <i>was</i> one of God's angels, but broke away because of his free will to choose whatever he wanted to do, in this case, rebel against God.
Obviously, no one is forcing you to believe anything, and if they did, we'd have a world with 100% Christianity, and we know just from this Discussion thread, that isn't the case.
As for the other points, Crisqo already went above and beyond what I could explain, so just uhh...look at that.
But this isn't a why should people not believe in a god thread so I'll stop there. Although I will say confidently that the Christian god is not the only diety out there and not everyone is obligated to treat it as such.
<u>______________________________</u>
I think Ryo's main problem is that he thinks that God actually owes something to the human race, when in fact, is the complete opposite. God created us, we went out of our way and forsook Him by not doing what he wanted us to do.
<u>_______________________________________________________</u>
So , God gave us free will for the sole purpose of being able to disobey him so that he can punish us to the last generation ? Sorry , that's outright sadism.
Quote
<u>______</u>
Rom 3:5-20
But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" Why not say--as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.
What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.
As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
<u>______________________________________________________</u>
Have you ever seen a city so filthy that not a good soul can be found ? This kind of argument might have been used to justify nuking the whole USSR , you know.
Quote
<u>______</u>
Quote(Ryo-Ohki)
<u>____________</u>
Oh right! Yeah just be a member of Noah's family and you're saved! To the remainding tens of millions of people: too bad! Yet you expect us to believe that the same god who would almost wipe out the human race is just, wise and benevolant?! There is nothing just in the slaughter of countless millions, if your holy books are to be believed.
<u>_______________________________________________________</u>
Consider the human race lucky that there was at least one good family to repopulate us.
<u>_______________________________________________________</u>
Why lucky ? If no one was left alive , God would have been left disappointed with His creation and there wouldn't have been any religion war. Better like that.
Again , justifying genocides using such dodgy reasons is questionable even for a deity.
Quote
<u>____</u>
Quote (Ryo-Ohki)
<u>____________</u>
Now why should a species that can produce Bethovan's Fifth Symphony be damned for all eternity? Why should a people who produced the poems of Keets, or the epic world of Tolkein, be condemed to endless suffering. Why should a society that gave us the Mona Lisa be cast asunder? Yes, mankind does bad things. But it's not all bad. In fact, a lot of it is good.
<u>_______________________________________________</u>
It doesn't matter how much good you do, that is NOT the way to get to heaven.
Eph. 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast.
<u>________________________________________________________</u>
Does that mean God doesn't freaking care of our hard work , and only wants us to worship him all day while multiplying to feed him with more souls ? That would be a sad deity for sure.
Quote
<u>______</u>
John 3:16-18
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. <b>Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. </b>
<u>_______________________________________________________</u>
How arbitrary. Have you ever considered the cases of people who were actually out of reach of the "Good News" and unable to hear the Messiah ? Yes , I'm speaking of the "pagans" living at the other end of the world back then , they didn't have a single chance to hear about the Christ , yet were condemned to burn in Hell , whatever constructive lives they had.
This makes the Christian God unfair and intolerant.
Quote
<u>_______</u>
QUOTE (Ryo-Ohki)
<u>_______________</u>
How can you sit there and actually say that the entire human race is worthless?
<u>_______________________________________________________</u>
Ephesians 2:1
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins.
Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
In other words without Jesus to forgive our sins, we are dead and ugly with sin to God
<u>_______________________________________________________</u>
Theses Scriptures quoting is getting on my nerves... really , I wouldn't shake hands with a Christian believing in such things. The Bible clearly states that we are intrinsically bad. That's typical of the conservative anti-life attitude.
Big Brother himself would have been more forgiving and understanding...
Quote
<u>_____</u>
Quote (Ryo-Ohki)
<u>______________</u>
is to submit to an authority that itself commited acts of unjust "evil".
<u>_______________________________________________________</u>
God is just, He does NOT make mistakes. Everything you classify as "evil" that God did was justified, and He always always ALWAYS provides a way out.
<u>_______________________________________________________</u>
Sorry , the passages you quoted mention things that couldn't be rationally justified. Admiring such actions looks utterly absurd to us.
Quote
<u>_____</u>
Quote (Torak)
<u>____________</u>
So, Jews, Muslims, Buddahists, Hare Krishnas etc are all going to hell? And whats to stop Charles Manson from repenting and going to heaven? Will he see Ghandi?
<u>_______________________________________________________</u>
Yes, heaven is a reserved priveledge to those who trusted The Messiah would come (Ancient Jews) or those who believe Jesus will forgive them of their sins, making them right with God (Christians). Whats to stop Charles Manson from repenting? My guess would be his basic evil nature; however, if he were to repent and truly be sorry for his sins and ask Jesus into his heart, he will go to heaven. (Note: Ghandi would only be in heaven if he trusted in Jesus to take him there...and I think he was budhist so, no, Ghandi is not in heaven... Unfortunatly.
<u>_______________________________________________________</u>
Why would God accept such absurd cases ? He's supposed to be forgiving , why should He require everyone to <i>only</i> believe in the Christ to give them eternal life ? As stated here , people who contributed the most to humankind's happyness can burn in Hell for not believing in the Christian God , but filthy criminals who had the luck to meet a priest and convert to the right religion would be rewarded by eternal life in Heaven ?
Is your God so proud of His Religion that He dismisses others , and gives priviledges to thoses who found the Right Way ? I can admit that deities create the Evil to compensate for Good , add subtle curses to their worlds like Entropy so that things are more interesting , but being biased to a branch of your own children and intolerant towards others is irresponsible , and that's not meant to be any deity's attribute.
My opinion is that the first believers invented this set of rules , to make proselytism easier and prevent heresy.
Quote
<u>______</u>
Quote (Torak)
<u>___________</u>
You mean to tell me that 76.6% of the world is going to hell because they are non-believers?
<u>_______________________________________________________</u>
Sadly, yes. It's our job as Christians to spread the Good News as much as possible, kinda like what i'm doing right now.
<u>_______________________________________________________</u>
This is nonsense. Why should anyone believe in a foreign God with cryptic teachings referring to unknown civilizations , and abandon the ancient deities that ruled countless generation's lives ? The Christian religion was forced on third world people , not gifted. Since the ancient cult's memories have been destroyed by european missionaries , theses people now live with this religion by default , and it didn't make their lives brighter really.
EDIT : phew , the Quote tree got martyrized a bit too much , I had to quote things manually.
*bathes in liquid nitrogen*
Eh? Was that directed towards my post?
While I've come to the realization that the verses in Genesis mainly concerning creation is symbolic, I was still under the impression that God's wrath was much more evident prior to Jesus' coming, there was no way sins could be attoned (except through livestock, which was still insufficent as a sacrifice for sins, but better than nothing). Maybe you consider a lot more of the Old Testament to be metaphorical than fact than I do, but I consider it fact that prior to Jesus' coming, God did give orders for his people to kill. After Jesus' coming, he was able to forgive, so his wrath was more... withheld (best word I can think of).
I know it doesn't work to put things in chronological order since God doesn't "follow time", but that's the best hypothesis I can come up with in the "wrathful at first, a lot more forgiving after" image.