Stak you make good points but try to keep your replies a little less blatently offensive (flamey). Be aware this is a tender topic treat it with kid gloves because you may not be sure about the wrath of gods, but be assured the wrath of admins does exist.
There is justified anger, and their is holy and righteous anger. It's the case in which people react when angry and what they do. Being angry isn't an action, it's a state of being.
Being angry also gets forums locked. Don't sementical about it, it's not worth losing the forums again. You have the benefit of sitting at a keyboard so take a few moments to deflame your post before adding it to the discussion, thank you to all who have kept it civil up to now.
God is perfect -> perfection is constant -> God doesn't change
If God is full of love and forgiveness then how could he have been any different before? The Bible makes the divine seem like a soap opera sometimes. You can't take all of it seriously.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So we give it a third shot. Let me remove one fear from the beginning: The Discussion Forum is here to stay. Period. It won't be closed again. To make this possible, and create an environment in which people can actually lead worthwhile discussions, some rules have to be implemented. Most of you will regard most of them as common sense, or so I hope, but please go through them carefully, anyway. Violation will in most cases not lead to temporary suspensions or bans; should someone however turn out to repeatedly disturb discussions, he will have his write access to this particular forum removed. A localized suspension, if you will.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Sirus+Aug 27 2003, 12:17 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sirus @ Aug 27 2003, 12:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There is justified anger, and their is holy and righteous anger. It's the case in which people react when angry and what they do. Being angry isn't an action, it's a state of being. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Eh ? I can understand that God's anger is holy and justified , but that doesn't mean believers should resort to violence to convince heathens , don't let yourself fall to the sin of Wrath my friend <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Seriously though , I'm sorry for overreacting and harassing Crisqo who never did anything to me except constantly post quotes from the Holy Bible...
It was predictable that the first Religion thread would see heated discussions , but how can you stick to facts when people only refer to their interpretation of a holy book written millenia ago ?
<!--QuoteBegin--Stakhanov+Aug 26 2003, 05:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stakhanov @ Aug 26 2003, 05:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Sirus+Aug 27 2003, 12:17 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sirus @ Aug 27 2003, 12:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There is justified anger, and their is holy and righteous anger. It's the case in which people react when angry and what they do. Being angry isn't an action, it's a state of being. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Eh ? I can understand that God's anger is holy and justified , but that doesn't mean believers should resort to violence to convince heathens , don't let yourself fall to the sin of Wrath my friend <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Seriously though , I'm sorry for overreacting and harassing Crisqo who never did anything to me except constantly post quotes from the Holy Bible...
It was predictable that the first Religion thread would see heated discussions , but how can you stick to facts when people only refer to their interpretation of a holy book written millenia ago ? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Easily, you tell them their blatent avoidance of discussing points rationally outside of the use of quotes that you personally find no merit in is offensive to you and you will no longer carry on a discussion with them if they continue to post in that manner.
MartOrigin of SUYFJoin Date: 2002-02-26Member: 248Members
Stakhanov has made some good points, and i'm glad someone took the time to write such a long post pointing out blatent flaws in Christian logic. And IIRC, isn't "false idols" one of the 10 'Do not break or youre going to hell' sins? If so then it confirms that God is entirely intolerant of other religions and that yes, people who do good in the world would go to hell for believing in something other than him.
If someone truely believes in another religion, dedidcates their lives to this religion and is a good person by anyones standards, why should they go to hell?
I don't see why we have latched on to the Christian idea of a god, perhaps we should steer to the discussion back towards the general idea of beleivng in a higher power and stay away from specifics.
<!--QuoteBegin--GreyPaws+Aug 22 2003, 05:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GreyPaws @ Aug 22 2003, 05:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Aug 22 2003, 10:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Aug 22 2003, 10:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually, modern quantum physics have beholded particles (-> matter) appearing spontaneously, with so far no known source or 'motivation'. I'm sure some of the physcracks around can supply further information. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> My favorite theory "Free Particle Theory"
There are soo many great links between the free particle theory and metaphysics it’s not even funny. For instance, all the free particles that appear now are only limited in yield (potential) by the particles around them (symmetrical orientation) or something like that. But supposedly the first free particle to appear had nothing to compare itself to (asymmetrical orientation) therefore had infinite yield or potential (heheheh infinite universe) and all other particles appeared within that first one. If you follow that theory then the Kabala (Qhabalah, there are too many spellings to list them all here) will blow you away (the math side of it anyway, some of the angelic namesakes and pathnames are hard to follow if you aren’t a spiritual person) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Here I'll restart it with the idea that there might be some scientific proof of a relegious belief.
<!--QuoteBegin--Mart+Aug 26 2003, 06:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mart @ Aug 26 2003, 06:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If someone truely believes in another religion, dedidcates their lives to this religion and is a good person by anyones standards, why should they go to hell? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Excellent question.
Linking back to the original topic here for a moment:
_Why one believes ? <b>Possible thought process of long ago</b> :
Well bad things happen on the planet ,such as drought, and we don't understand why. Maybe it's because we offended the "creator(s)" of our world (we create things so someone created us). The "creator" must be angry because we ourselves get angry from time to time.
Then someone needs to formulate a plan as to why we offended and what we can do to make it right/appease. We're obviously at fault, so maybe sacrificing things will make it right. If we sacrifice then it shows that we're willing to endure hardships (self-punishment) and give gifts to make amends. This will make the "creator(s)" forgive us/be happy.
--------> ceremony and rituals develop over time, with a select group x claiming special closeness to the "creator(s)" and wielding various degrees of governmental/tribal authority. Religious Rules/Laws are established. Certain members of group x relish this new found power and the material benefits they receive.
Something that may have may started in the best interests of all becomes corrupted. Descendants mostly just parrot their ancestors ways...not many question the status quo.
<b>Next parallel thought process</b>: What happens when we die ? Well, surely the "creator(s)" must have a plan for us. I'm sure if we do things to please we will be rewarded and continue living somehow. But what about those who don't do these things to please...surely they'll be cursed with a horrible fate ?! After all, we punish those who break tribal law so surely the "creator" will punish them.
--------> Group x now warns of dire afterlife consequences for not following the laws they have put forth. Some members of group x relish this extra control - it's now not only this life that is on the line, but your eternal fate as well ! Better obey then...or at least seem to. Group x also declares the only way to a good afterlife is their way. They don't want to yield any possible control to Group y that live over the mountain. Sometimes group x even encourages war on group y. They need to believe as we do ! (we want their stuff as well).
-----------------------------
Conclusion: "hell" makes a wonderful control tool. That is one possible reason why non-believers are doomed to hell... no matter how "good" they are i.e. you can't afford them a "heaven" because then they could believe as they choose (possibly not donating to your cause etc.)
I think any religion that excludes everyone else (non-believers) from a "good" afterlife loses alot of credibility right from the get-go. It smacks of corruption and control IMO - even if the original intent was otherwise.
That's not to say that religions do not have anything positive to offer us. The message of "love thy fellow/respect life" is of course good, and some equip us with tools for self-exploration (good).
<!--QuoteBegin--Mart+Aug 26 2003, 06:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mart @ Aug 26 2003, 06:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If so then it confirms that God is entirely intolerant of other religions and that yes, people who do good in the world would go to hell for believing in something other than him. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me."--God
Yea, hes intolerant. but were not tolerant of people who say 2+2=5 are we? sooooooory, personal opinion leaking in.
And God allso says that earthly acts do not get you to heaven, nor do they keep you out. Good, bad, indiferent, it doesnt matter, only thing to get you into heaven is believing Jesus is the Son of God, the Way the Truth and the Light.
<!--QuoteBegin--Moon+Aug 26 2003, 07:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Moon @ Aug 26 2003, 07:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Mart+Aug 26 2003, 06:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mart @ Aug 26 2003, 06:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If someone truely believes in another religion, dedidcates their lives to this religion and is a good person by anyones standards, why should they go to hell? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Excellent question.
Linking back to the original topic here for a moment:
_Why one believes ? <b>Possible thought process of long ago</b> :
Well bad things happen on the planet ,such as drought, and we don't understand why. Maybe it's because we offended the "creator(s)" of our world (we create things so someone created us). The "creator" must be angry because we ourselves get angry from time to time.
Then someone needs to formulate a plan as to why we offended and what we can do to make it right/appease. We're obviously at fault, so maybe sacrificing things will make it right. If we sacrifice then it shows that we're willing to endure hardships (self-punishment) and give gifts to make amends. This will make the "creator(s)" forgive us/be happy.
--------> ceremony and rituals develop over time, with a select group x claiming special closeness to the "creator(s)" and wielding various degrees of governmental/tribal authority. Religious Rules/Laws are established. Certain members of group x relish this new found power and the material benefits they receive.
Something that may have may started in the best interests of all becomes corrupted. Descendants mostly just parrot their ancestors ways...not many question the status quo.
<b>Next parallel thought process</b>: What happens when we die ? Well, surely the "creator(s)" must have a plan for us. I'm sure if we do things to please we will be rewarded and continue living somehow. But what about those who don't do these things to please...surely they'll be cursed with a horrible fate ?! After all, we punish those who break tribal law so surely the "creator" will punish them.
--------> Group x now warns of dire afterlife consequences for not following the laws they have put forth. Some members of group x relish this extra control - it's now not only this life that is on the line, but your eternal fate as well ! Better obey then...or at least seem to. Group x also declares the only way to a good afterlife is their way. They don't want to yield any possible control to Group y that live over the mountain. Sometimes group x even encourages war on group y. They need to believe as we do ! (we want their stuff as well).
-----------------------------
Conclusion: "hell" makes a wonderful control tool. That is one possible reason why non-believers are doomed to hell... no matter how "good" they are i.e. you can't afford them a "heaven" because then they could believe as they choose (possibly not donating to your cause etc.)
I think any religion that excludes everyone else (non-believers) from a "good" afterlife loses alot of credibility right from the get-go. It smacks of corruption and control IMO - even if the original intent was otherwise.
That's not to say that religions do not have anything positive to offer us. The message of "love thy fellow/respect life" is of course good, and some equip us with tools for self-exploration (good). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is all, of course, assuming that religion was man-made. If I beleived God was man made, I would not put my faith in it. However, I do believe in my heart of hearts that Jesus is the Christ of God, a real spiritual being, a real God.
I believe God is real, which is why I believe IN him. Your train of thought assumes God is not real. That is the question that must be answered.
However, I feel I must address a few points that Stakhanov made.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Have you ever seen a city so filthy that not a good soul can be found ? This kind of argument might have been used to justify nuking the whole USSR , you know.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I havent. Which is probably why this one was destroyed.
Also, yes, that argument may have been used to justify a genocide, but who is there to say what a good soul is? Mere man cannot do so, we don't know people's thought and motives, but assuming God is is real, he can, so he is the perfect judge.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why lucky ? If no one was left alive , God would have been left disappointed with His creation and there wouldn't have been any religion war. Better like that.
Again , justifying genocides using such dodgy reasons is questionable even for a deity. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I stated earlyer, the majority of war comes from political and economic causes. Not religious, and none of the wars faught in Christ's name were done so with biblical backing, and Christ taught against war. Those recorded in the Old testament were done in order to save the nation of Israel, which was promised to deliver a savior, which would blese the whole world.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How arbitrary. Have you ever considered the cases of people who were actually out of reach of the "Good News" and unable to hear the Messiah ? Yes , I'm speaking of the "pagans" living at the other end of the world back then , they didn't have a single chance to hear about the Christ , yet were condemned to burn in Hell , whatever constructive lives they had.
This makes the Christian God unfair and intolerant. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Search for Melchizadek. An Egyptian, I think, priest, who gave praise to God in front of Abram, despite not being a Jew. IIRC, there was also a book published describing a tribe in Africa that had a set of Christian-like beliefs, despite no outside contact.
Also, there has been a debate for some time as to how those who are not given the Gospel are judged, and what against. I can't remebmer exactly where the biblical backing for the arguments is, but I'll try and find it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Theses Scriptures quoting is getting on my nerves... really , I wouldn't shake hands with a Christian believing in such things. The Bible clearly states that we are intrinsically bad. That's typical of the conservative anti-life attitude. Big Brother himself would have been more forgiving and understanding... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The basic alignment of man is a whole other debate. For a different thread.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why would God accept such absurd cases ? He's supposed to be forgiving , why should He require everyone to only believe in the Christ to give them eternal life ? As stated here , people who contributed the most to humankind's happyness can burn in Hell for not believing in the Christian God , but filthy criminals who had the luck to meet a priest and convert to the right religion would be rewarded by eternal life in Heaven ?
Is your God so proud of His Religion that He dismisses others , and gives priviledges to thoses who found the Right Way ? I can admit that deities create the Evil to compensate for Good , add subtle curses to their worlds like Entropy so that things are more interesting , but being biased to a branch of your own children and intolerant towards others is irresponsible , and that's not meant to be any deity's attribute. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God wishes all to come to the knowledge of the truth, all to be saved. Check 1 Timothy, it's stated outright, he dismisses no-one save those who dismisses Him first. What would you think if everyone went to heaven, every single person? Even Timothy McVay and Usama Bin Laden. In order to be justice, there must be payment for transgressions. Christ lay down his life to do just that, and I don't see what's irresponsable about self-sacrifice.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is nonsense. Why should anyone believe in a foreign God with cryptic teachings referring to unknown civilizations , and abandon the ancient deities that ruled countless generation's lives ? The Christian religion was forced on third world people , not gifted. Since the ancient cult's memories have been destroyed by european missionaries , theses people now live with this religion by default , and it didn't make their lives brighter really. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One of my best friends just got back from Cambodia. I'll see if I can get some pictures and some writings from her, but she described to me whole scores of people living blissfully there, in horrible conditions, simply because they hold Christ close to their hearts. How do YOU know that it's not making their lives better?
Sorry for my arguments being snippy and not well developed. I'd like to post more, but I've had an asstastic day, and I need some time to clear my head. I'll no doubt do some prayer, which will no doubt help just like it helped last time. Chock up another reason why I believe in God.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It doesn't matter how much good you do, that is NOT the way to get to heaven. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Entirely not the point I was making.
You say that there is not a speck of goodness in humanity, that we are just wallowing in filth, sin and evil. That we are incapable of doing anything but acts of unspeakable cruelness to one another.
How dare you say such things? How can you simply catagorise the entire human race as garbage. In a stroke there you poar scorn on every peice of art, song, poety and literature that we as a race have ever produced. You sneer at every decent loving person on the planet who help their friends and neighbours, cherish their loved ones, and try to raise good families. You take every good deed or act commitied since our ancestors crawled down from the trees and drag them through mud.
And then you go on to say that regardless of what you did in life, your god will forgive them, provided you just believe. Sorry, but if I have to be in your heaven alongside such cheery characters as Adolf Hitler and Charles Manson then I am damn glad I'm an atheist.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->comes a feeling of overwhelming joy and happiness, and your worldview changes, suddenly alchohol, sex and partying seem less appealing than spending a walk with a girl and respecting her body.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now this really makes my blood boil. Just before I respond to this, my atheist buddies and I are gonna go for a walk. On the way we'll pick up 5 kegs of booze because well you know us! Drink until we can't breath! After that we'll just started partying in the middle of the freeway. Can't slow us down no sir! We'll then grab ahold of a woman from a sidewalk and all gang r4pe her. Because that's what non-christians do right?
Did it EVER occur to you that non-christians like myself might treat woman as people? I treat my fiancee with nothing but love and understanding; I have plenty of friends who treat their respective girlfriends/wives in exactly the same way. I have lots of female friends who I get along famously with: they're great people who provide excellent conversation and friendship. I don't drink much because I tend to feel sick afterwards, but if it's someone's 21st or a special occassion I'll have a few. Whats the huge sin in that? I go to parties occassionally to celebrate events with my friends: I don't spend every waking moment listening to satanic rock and cavorting naked with prostitutes in a pool of virginal blood. To even suggest that people who are not Christian are incapable of living lives of moderation and respect is simply bigoted.
Finally, for the last time I will not capitalise god because the term is refering to a theoretical object, not a name. I do not believe that there is anything to wear the name or label of "god", thus I will not capitalise.
I for one am not going to participate in this discussion any longer if it keeps being about single relegion specifically, this thread wasn't started to debate the merits and non-merits of Christianity. And if I remember correctly one of the forum rules is you have to be able to concede to another persons argument if you are going to post and if you are posting as a Christian your an inherintly inable to be swayed from your position so you are directly in violation of that rule.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How can anyone take The Old Testament seriously?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Probably because Jesus did. He quoted from it regularly, and made it very clear that "one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."
As Acts 5 illustrates, God is not beyond punishing those that defy Him even under the New Covenant. He didn't change, only His relationship with His followers did. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I for one am not going to participate in this discussion any longer if it keeps being about single relegion specifically, this thread wasn't started to debate the merits and non-merits of Christianity.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What did you expect? It's a thread about God, started on a discussion board which draws its members primarily from western countries where Christianity is the dominant religion. If you bring in some Muslims, Jews or Buddhists to enrich the discussion, I'm sure they'd be more than welcome.
If you expected to talk about a god disconnected from ANY specific religion however, that's impossible. Such a concept would be purely speculative.
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Aug 27 2003, 12:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Aug 27 2003, 12:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is all, of course, assuming that religion was man-made. If I beleived God was man made, I would not put my faith in it. However, I do believe in my heart of hearts that Jesus is the Christ of God, a real spiritual being, a real God.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well considering the vast number of gods around such as Zeus / Odin / Anubis etc. I'm assuming you're willing to admit that religion is man-made; at least in those instances ? And if you say something like they were born of a need for man to worship (so there must be a god out there) then why were those people not "inspired" as to the correct deity to worship ?
You'll notice that alot of those gods were said to have human characteristics also. Zeus got angry and there come lightning bolts. Cleary this helps explain natural phenomena i.e. man's need to understand the world. The fact that gods have emotions like ours is further evidence of man-made ideas. In a need to understand god(s) people naturally assumed that they get angry and jealous, because they themselves experience these things.
What about suicide-bombers promised virgins in the after-life ? Man-made... I'd say.
Furthermore, why is Jesus always portrayed seemingly as a beard-neatly-trimmed European ? Seems like evidence of men wanting things a certain way no ? For any that are interested: try do a google search for "the real face of Jesus".
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Aug 27 2003, 02:18 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Aug 27 2003, 02:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It doesn't matter how much good you do, that is NOT the way to get to heaven. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Entirely not the point I was making.
You say that there is not a speck of goodness in humanity, that we are just wallowing in filth, sin and evil. That we are incapable of doing anything but acts of unspeakable cruelness to one another.
How dare you say such things? How can you simply catagorise the entire human race as garbage...etc...
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There's no disputing that there are some really great things <b>of this world</b> that we ALL can enjoy, no matter what religion you have (or lack there of). As you've mentioned, great compositions of music, great works of art and movies, time spent with your family, the list goes on and on.
Alas, unfortunately, when it comes to the "spiritual" side of this life (for lack of a better term at this time in the morning) all of that stuff is only of worldly value and everyone is on an even playing field - sinful in the eyes of God, who is perfect.
(Repeated) It doesn't matter how much good you do, that is NOT the way to get to heaven.(End Repeat) No matter how many orhpans you've saved from a burning building or how many Conciertos in C Minor you have written, no Earthly works are going to get you to heaven. Only through one thing - faith in Jesus will get you there.
Edit - In response to the latter portion of your post. I can't speak for Ulatoh, but I don't think that he was insinuating that people that don't have God as their Savior are all the people that go out get drunk etc... I interpreted as the change that could happen IF someone, for instance, led a life that included all of those things. I thought of it as a more "personal" experience type of thing that he could tell about for himself, how exactly religion made a change in his life...but you'll have to wait for his response, sorry if I took that out of context.
Edit Jr. - In response to Dr. D, I am only comfortable proclaiming and debating what I believe, which in this case is Christianity. Any other people that aren't Christian/not religious at all (which seems to be the main populus in here), are welcome to state what they believe.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(Repeated) It doesn't matter how much good you do, that is NOT the way to get to heaven.(End Repeat) No matter how many orhpans you've saved from a burning building or how many Conciertos in C Minor you have written, no Earthly works are going to get you to heaven. Only through one thing - faith in Jesus will get you there. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So it doesn't matter if you actually follow the teachings of Jesus. It doesn't matter if you do treat others well, love thy neighbour and turn the other cheek. You can go around doing whatever the hell you feel like, as long as you have faith in Jesus.
That's gotta be one of the most screwed up teachings I've ever seen. You're saying that I can r4pe, pillage, murder and steal so long as I have faith. And it's not like things can get any worse for me if I do these things, because I'm already going to hell for being born! Essentially I have been given a free license to act as I wish, and no matter how terrible the "sins" I commit, I'm still gureenteed a spot in heaven. Real great stuff to base a code of morals and ethics around.
Heck if I was a more morally decadant person you could have signed me up for your religion. I cannot imagine a more corrupt and debaucherous theology.
Bosnian: Millions of Germans found the face of Adolf Hitler to be very charming as well. Forgive me if I don't quite understand your point.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So it doesn't matter if you actually follow the teachings of Jesus. It doesn't matter if you do treat others well, love thy neighbour and turn the other cheek. You can go around doing whatever the hell you feel like, as long as you have faith in Jesus.
That's gotta be one of the most screwed up teachings I've ever seen. You're saying that I can r4pe, pillage, murder and steal so long as I have faith. And it's not like things can get any worse for me if I do these things, because I'm already going to hell for being born! Essentially I have been given a free license to act as I wish, and no matter how terrible the "sins" I commit, I'm still gureenteed a spot in heaven. Real great stuff to base a code of morals and ethics around.
Heck if I was a more morally decadant person you could have signed me up for your religion. I cannot imagine a more corrupt and debaucherous theology.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Truer words could not have been written. If I wasn't married and you didn't have a girlfriend, Ryo, I'd marry you. Oops, thats the **** marrige thread! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Hey if thats your picture in your sig I look quite similar <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Aug 27 2003, 08:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Aug 27 2003, 08:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(Repeated) It doesn't matter how much good you do, that is NOT the way to get to heaven.(End Repeat) No matter how many orhpans you've saved from a burning building or how many Conciertos in C Minor you have written, no Earthly works are going to get you to heaven. Only through one thing - faith in Jesus will get you there. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So it doesn't matter if you actually follow the teachings of Jesus. It doesn't matter if you do treat others well, love thy neighbour and turn the other cheek. You can go around doing whatever the hell you feel like, as long as you have faith in Jesus.
That's gotta be one of the most screwed up teachings I've ever seen. You're saying that I can r4pe, pillage, murder and steal so long as I have faith. And it's not like things can get any worse for me if I do these things, because I'm already going to hell for being born! Essentially I have been given a free license to act as I wish, and no matter how terrible the "sins" I commit, I'm still gureenteed a spot in heaven. Real great stuff to base a code of morals and ethics around.
Heck if I was a more morally decadant person you could have signed me up for your religion. I cannot imagine a more corrupt and debaucherous theology.
Bosnian: Millions of Germans found the face of Adolf Hitler to be very charming as well. Forgive me if I don't quite understand your point. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If you had faith in Jesus you would believe what he said and <b><i>wouldn't</i></b> act that way
<!--QuoteBegin--Bosnian+Aug 26 2003, 02:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bosnian @ Aug 26 2003, 02:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is the way I see it:
God is perfect -> perfection is constant -> God doesn't change
If God is full of love and forgiveness then how could he have been any different before? The Bible makes the divine seem like a soap opera sometimes. You can't take all of it seriously. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I had to think about the "forgiving/wrathful" side of God for awhile; seems like a couple of things I forgot during my time in Sunday School.
Had the Israelites followed their part of the convenant with God perfectly, Christianity would of never come about. God was an exclusive deity for the Israelite people, and would of remained exclusive for the Israelites - they would of become rulers of the world had they not rejected God.
Of course, they did, which led to God's grace reaching out to us majority Gentiles. God's grace and forgiveness was initially an exclusive Israelite deal. Most other nations didn't get much of a chance for God's forgiveness when it came to God's grace simply because they weren't in on that deal. Even so, God's forgiveness once in a while would reach out (aka Ninevah).
Not sure if this really means anything to you, cause I don't know how much of the OT you dig. The OT scares me too... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
-edit- Yea thats me in the avatar, in all my splender! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I have actually heard that some Christian Fundamentalists say that God put the fossils there to test our faith.
???
-edit- Yea thats me in the avatar, in all my splender! :D <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ungh... I need to restraining order from meeting with my fundamentalist bretheren.
Two Theories:
1. Don't read the Bible <i>literally</i>, read it <i>literarily</i>. I'll admit it took me a while to realize it, but for the bloody sakes, look at the description of symbolically (though I'm rather surprised that in that day and age, they were observant enough to notice women had one extra set of ribs more than men)
2. God is not limited by the law of time, (since Christians believe he can do anything). Seven days to Him is not seven days to us; see Theory of Relativity... Taking that in consideration, I wonder why Christians bother to dispute over abiogenesis at all. <i>Man came from dust</i>. An easy way to see it, dust + liquid = primordial soup. <b>TADAA!!!</b>. Still, I'd rather go with theory numero uno.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but if I have to be in your heaven alongside such cheery characters as Adolf Hitler and Charles Manson then I am damn glad I'm an atheist. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all Hitler was jewish, and second, it's doubtful Manson will find Jesus or even except Him when told about Him.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So it doesn't matter if you actually follow the teachings of Jesus. It doesn't matter if you do treat others well, love thy neighbour and turn the other cheek. You can go around doing whatever the hell you feel like, as long as you have faith in Jesus.
That's gotta be one of the most screwed up teachings I've ever seen. You're saying that I can r4pe, pillage, murder and steal so long as I have faith. And it's not like things can get any worse for me if I do these things, because I'm already going to hell for being born! Essentially I have been given a free license to act as I wish, and no matter how terrible the "sins" I commit, I'm still gureenteed a spot in heaven. Real great stuff to base a code of morals and ethics around.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you actually meant that you loved Jesus, you wouldn't do those things. Stop trying to twist what we say, it won't work.
I don't know for certain because i'm not over 4000 years old, but I imagine they wouldn't fit in the arc due to size constraints. Oh well, one less man-eating behemoth race to worry about.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Aug 27 2003, 09:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Aug 27 2003, 09:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That's gotta be one of the most screwed up teachings I've ever seen. You're saying that I can r4pe, pillage, murder and steal so long as I have faith. And it's not like things can get any worse for me if I do these things, because I'm already going to hell for being born! Essentially I have been given a free license to act as I wish, and no matter how terrible the "sins" I commit, I'm still gureenteed a spot in heaven. Real great stuff to base a code of morals and ethics around.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Listen, if you HAD faith and truly followed his teachings, you WOULN'T do those things in the first place. And if you <i>are</i> doing those things over and over again, then turn around going to people and saying "I truly believe in God and am going to heaven" then you're deceiving yourself.
Short Answer - What Epidemic said...he has a way with condensing what I'm thinking into a nice, concise sentence.
Also, on a side note, calling a widely accepted religion that I personally put a lot of belief in a "corrupt and debaucherous theology" is one thing...but comparing Jesus Christ to Adolph Hitler crosses the line of decency and respect for what other people believe...I'll just leave it at that...you're entitled to say whatever you want.
Comments
God is perfect -> perfection is constant -> God doesn't change
If God is full of love and forgiveness then how could he have been any different before? The Bible makes the divine seem like a soap opera sometimes. You can't take all of it seriously.
To make this possible, and create an environment in which people can actually lead worthwhile discussions, some rules have to be implemented. Most of you will regard most of them as common sense, or so I hope, but please go through them carefully, anyway. Violation will in most cases not lead to temporary suspensions or bans; should someone however turn out to repeatedly disturb discussions, he will have his write access to this particular forum removed. A localized suspension, if you will.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
/me shrugs.
Eh ? I can understand that God's anger is holy and justified , but that doesn't mean believers should resort to violence to convince heathens , don't let yourself fall to the sin of Wrath my friend <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Seriously though , I'm sorry for overreacting and harassing Crisqo who never did anything to me except constantly post quotes from the Holy Bible...
It was predictable that the first Religion thread would see heated discussions , but how can you stick to facts when people only refer to their interpretation of a holy book written millenia ago ?
Eh ? I can understand that God's anger is holy and justified , but that doesn't mean believers should resort to violence to convince heathens , don't let yourself fall to the sin of Wrath my friend <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Seriously though , I'm sorry for overreacting and harassing Crisqo who never did anything to me except constantly post quotes from the Holy Bible...
It was predictable that the first Religion thread would see heated discussions , but how can you stick to facts when people only refer to their interpretation of a holy book written millenia ago ? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Easily, you tell them their blatent avoidance of discussing points rationally outside of the use of quotes that you personally find no merit in is offensive to you and you will no longer carry on a discussion with them if they continue to post in that manner.
If someone truely believes in another religion, dedidcates their lives to this religion and is a good person by anyones standards, why should they go to hell?
My favorite theory "Free Particle Theory"
There are soo many great links between the free particle theory and metaphysics it’s not even funny. For instance, all the free particles that appear now are only limited in yield (potential) by the particles around them (symmetrical orientation) or something like that. But supposedly the first free particle to appear had nothing to compare itself to (asymmetrical orientation) therefore had infinite yield or potential (heheheh infinite universe) and all other particles appeared within that first one. If you follow that theory then the Kabala (Qhabalah, there are too many spellings to list them all here) will blow you away (the math side of it anyway, some of the angelic namesakes and pathnames are hard to follow if you aren’t a spiritual person) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here I'll restart it with the idea that there might be some scientific proof of a relegious belief.
Excellent question.
Linking back to the original topic here for a moment:
_Why one believes ? <b>Possible thought process of long ago</b> :
Well bad things happen on the planet ,such as drought, and we don't understand why. Maybe it's because we offended the "creator(s)" of our world (we create things so someone created us). The "creator" must be angry because we ourselves get angry from time to time.
Then someone needs to formulate a plan as to why we offended and what we can do to make it right/appease. We're obviously at fault, so maybe sacrificing things will make it right. If we sacrifice then it shows that we're willing to endure hardships (self-punishment) and give gifts to make amends. This will make the "creator(s)" forgive us/be happy.
--------> ceremony and rituals develop over time, with a select group x claiming special closeness to the "creator(s)" and wielding various degrees of governmental/tribal authority. Religious Rules/Laws are established. Certain members of group x relish this new found power and the material benefits they receive.
Something that may have may started in the best interests of all becomes corrupted. Descendants mostly just parrot their ancestors ways...not many question the status quo.
<b>Next parallel thought process</b>: What happens when we die ? Well, surely the "creator(s)" must have a plan for us. I'm sure if we do things to please we will be rewarded and continue living somehow. But what about those who don't do these things to please...surely they'll be cursed with a horrible fate ?! After all, we punish those who break tribal law so surely the "creator" will punish them.
--------> Group x now warns of dire afterlife consequences for not following the laws they have put forth. Some members of group x relish this extra control - it's now not only this life that is on the line, but your eternal fate as well ! Better obey then...or at least seem to. Group x also declares the only way to a good afterlife is their way. They don't want to yield any possible control to Group y that live over the mountain. Sometimes group x even encourages war on group y. They need to believe as we do ! (we want their stuff as well).
-----------------------------
Conclusion: "hell" makes a wonderful control tool. That is one possible reason why non-believers are doomed to hell... no matter how "good" they are i.e. you can't afford them a "heaven" because then they could believe as they choose (possibly not donating to your cause etc.)
I think any religion that excludes everyone else (non-believers) from a "good" afterlife loses alot of credibility right from the get-go. It smacks of corruption and control IMO - even if the original intent was otherwise.
That's not to say that religions do not have anything positive to offer us. The message of "love thy fellow/respect life" is of course good, and some equip us with tools for self-exploration (good).
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Thou shalt have no other Gods before me."--God
Yea, hes intolerant. but were not tolerant of people who say 2+2=5 are we?
sooooooory, personal opinion leaking in.
And God allso says that earthly acts do not get you to heaven, nor do they keep you out. Good, bad, indiferent, it doesnt matter, only thing to get you into heaven is believing Jesus is the Son of God, the Way the Truth and the Light.
Excellent question.
Linking back to the original topic here for a moment:
_Why one believes ? <b>Possible thought process of long ago</b> :
Well bad things happen on the planet ,such as drought, and we don't understand why. Maybe it's because we offended the "creator(s)" of our world (we create things so someone created us). The "creator" must be angry because we ourselves get angry from time to time.
Then someone needs to formulate a plan as to why we offended and what we can do to make it right/appease. We're obviously at fault, so maybe sacrificing things will make it right. If we sacrifice then it shows that we're willing to endure hardships (self-punishment) and give gifts to make amends. This will make the "creator(s)" forgive us/be happy.
--------> ceremony and rituals develop over time, with a select group x claiming special closeness to the "creator(s)" and wielding various degrees of governmental/tribal authority. Religious Rules/Laws are established. Certain members of group x relish this new found power and the material benefits they receive.
Something that may have may started in the best interests of all becomes corrupted. Descendants mostly just parrot their ancestors ways...not many question the status quo.
<b>Next parallel thought process</b>: What happens when we die ? Well, surely the "creator(s)" must have a plan for us. I'm sure if we do things to please we will be rewarded and continue living somehow. But what about those who don't do these things to please...surely they'll be cursed with a horrible fate ?! After all, we punish those who break tribal law so surely the "creator" will punish them.
--------> Group x now warns of dire afterlife consequences for not following the laws they have put forth. Some members of group x relish this extra control - it's now not only this life that is on the line, but your eternal fate as well ! Better obey then...or at least seem to. Group x also declares the only way to a good afterlife is their way. They don't want to yield any possible control to Group y that live over the mountain. Sometimes group x even encourages war on group y. They need to believe as we do ! (we want their stuff as well).
-----------------------------
Conclusion: "hell" makes a wonderful control tool. That is one possible reason why non-believers are doomed to hell... no matter how "good" they are i.e. you can't afford them a "heaven" because then they could believe as they choose (possibly not donating to your cause etc.)
I think any religion that excludes everyone else (non-believers) from a "good" afterlife loses alot of credibility right from the get-go. It smacks of corruption and control IMO - even if the original intent was otherwise.
That's not to say that religions do not have anything positive to offer us. The message of "love thy fellow/respect life" is of course good, and some equip us with tools for self-exploration (good). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is all, of course, assuming that religion was man-made. If I beleived God was man made, I would not put my faith in it. However, I do believe in my heart of hearts that Jesus is the Christ of God, a real spiritual being, a real God.
I believe God is real, which is why I believe IN him. Your train of thought assumes God is not real. That is the question that must be answered.
However, I feel I must address a few points that Stakhanov made.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Have you ever seen a city so filthy that not a good soul can be found ? This kind of argument might have been used to justify nuking the whole USSR , you know.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I havent. Which is probably why this one was destroyed.
Also, yes, that argument may have been used to justify a genocide, but who is there to say what a good soul is? Mere man cannot do so, we don't know people's thought and motives, but assuming God is is real, he can, so he is the perfect judge.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why lucky ? If no one was left alive , God would have been left disappointed with His creation and there wouldn't have been any religion war. Better like that.
Again , justifying genocides using such dodgy reasons is questionable even for a deity.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I stated earlyer, the majority of war comes from political and economic causes. Not religious, and none of the wars faught in Christ's name were done so with biblical backing, and Christ taught against war. Those recorded in the Old testament were done in order to save the nation of Israel, which was promised to deliver a savior, which would blese the whole world.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How arbitrary. Have you ever considered the cases of people who were actually out of reach of the "Good News" and unable to hear the Messiah ? Yes , I'm speaking of the "pagans" living at the other end of the world back then , they didn't have a single chance to hear about the Christ , yet were condemned to burn in Hell , whatever constructive lives they had.
This makes the Christian God unfair and intolerant.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Search for Melchizadek. An Egyptian, I think, priest, who gave praise to God in front of Abram, despite not being a Jew. IIRC, there was also a book published describing a tribe in Africa that had a set of Christian-like beliefs, despite no outside contact.
Also, there has been a debate for some time as to how those who are not given the Gospel are judged, and what against. I can't remebmer exactly where the biblical backing for the arguments is, but I'll try and find it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Theses Scriptures quoting is getting on my nerves... really , I wouldn't shake hands with a Christian believing in such things. The Bible clearly states that we are intrinsically bad. That's typical of the conservative anti-life attitude.
Big Brother himself would have been more forgiving and understanding...
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The basic alignment of man is a whole other debate. For a different thread.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why would God accept such absurd cases ? He's supposed to be forgiving , why should He require everyone to only believe in the Christ to give them eternal life ? As stated here , people who contributed the most to humankind's happyness can burn in Hell for not believing in the Christian God , but filthy criminals who had the luck to meet a priest and convert to the right religion would be rewarded by eternal life in Heaven ?
Is your God so proud of His Religion that He dismisses others , and gives priviledges to thoses who found the Right Way ? I can admit that deities create the Evil to compensate for Good , add subtle curses to their worlds like Entropy so that things are more interesting , but being biased to a branch of your own children and intolerant towards others is irresponsible , and that's not meant to be any deity's attribute.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God wishes all to come to the knowledge of the truth, all to be saved. Check 1 Timothy, it's stated outright, he dismisses no-one save those who dismisses Him first. What would you think if everyone went to heaven, every single person? Even Timothy McVay and Usama Bin Laden. In order to be justice, there must be payment for transgressions. Christ lay down his life to do just that, and I don't see what's irresponsable about self-sacrifice.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is nonsense. Why should anyone believe in a foreign God with cryptic teachings referring to unknown civilizations , and abandon the ancient deities that ruled countless generation's lives ? The Christian religion was forced on third world people , not gifted. Since the ancient cult's memories have been destroyed by european missionaries , theses people now live with this religion by default , and it didn't make their lives brighter really.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One of my best friends just got back from Cambodia. I'll see if I can get some pictures and some writings from her, but she described to me whole scores of people living blissfully there, in horrible conditions, simply because they hold Christ close to their hearts. How do YOU know that it's not making their lives better?
Sorry for my arguments being snippy and not well developed. I'd like to post more, but I've had an asstastic day, and I need some time to clear my head. I'll no doubt do some prayer, which will no doubt help just like it helped last time. Chock up another reason why I believe in God.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Entirely not the point I was making.
You say that there is not a speck of goodness in humanity, that we are just wallowing in filth, sin and evil. That we are incapable of doing anything but acts of unspeakable cruelness to one another.
How dare you say such things? How can you simply catagorise the entire human race as garbage. In a stroke there you poar scorn on every peice of art, song, poety and literature that we as a race have ever produced. You sneer at every decent loving person on the planet who help their friends and neighbours, cherish their loved ones, and try to raise good families. You take every good deed or act commitied since our ancestors crawled down from the trees and drag them through mud.
And then you go on to say that regardless of what you did in life, your god will forgive them, provided you just believe. Sorry, but if I have to be in your heaven alongside such cheery characters as Adolf Hitler and Charles Manson then I am damn glad I'm an atheist.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->comes a feeling of overwhelming joy and happiness, and your worldview changes, suddenly alchohol, sex and partying seem less appealing than spending a walk with a girl and respecting her body.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now this really makes my blood boil. Just before I respond to this, my atheist buddies and I are gonna go for a walk. On the way we'll pick up 5 kegs of booze because well you know us! Drink until we can't breath!
After that we'll just started partying in the middle of the freeway. Can't slow us down no sir! We'll then grab ahold of a woman from a sidewalk and all gang r4pe her. Because that's what non-christians do right?
Did it EVER occur to you that non-christians like myself might treat woman as people? I treat my fiancee with nothing but love and understanding; I have plenty of friends who treat their respective girlfriends/wives in exactly the same way. I have lots of female friends who I get along famously with: they're great people who provide excellent conversation and friendship. I don't drink much because I tend to feel sick afterwards, but if it's someone's 21st or a special occassion I'll have a few. Whats the huge sin in that? I go to parties occassionally to celebrate events with my friends: I don't spend every waking moment listening to satanic rock and cavorting naked with prostitutes in a pool of virginal blood. To even suggest that people who are not Christian are incapable of living lives of moderation and respect is simply bigoted.
Finally, for the last time I will not capitalise god because the term is refering to a theoretical object, not a name. I do not believe that there is anything to wear the name or label of "god", thus I will not capitalise.
Probably because Jesus did. He quoted from it regularly, and made it very clear that "one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."
As Acts 5 illustrates, God is not beyond punishing those that defy Him even under the New Covenant. He didn't change, only His relationship with His followers did.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I for one am not going to participate in this discussion any longer if it keeps being about single relegion specifically, this thread wasn't started to debate the merits and non-merits of Christianity.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What did you expect? It's a thread about God, started on a discussion board which draws its members primarily from western countries where Christianity is the dominant religion. If you bring in some Muslims, Jews or Buddhists to enrich the discussion, I'm sure they'd be more than welcome.
If you expected to talk about a god disconnected from ANY specific religion however, that's impossible. Such a concept would be purely speculative.
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Well considering the vast number of gods around such as Zeus / Odin / Anubis etc. I'm assuming you're willing to admit that religion is man-made; at least in those instances ? And if you say something like they were born of a need for man to worship (so there must be a god out there) then why were those people not "inspired" as to the correct deity to worship ?
You'll notice that alot of those gods were said to have human characteristics also. Zeus got angry and there come lightning bolts. Cleary this helps explain natural phenomena i.e. man's need to understand the world.
The fact that gods have emotions like ours is further evidence of man-made ideas. In a need to understand god(s) people naturally assumed that they get angry and jealous, because they themselves experience these things.
What about suicide-bombers promised virgins in the after-life ? Man-made... I'd say.
Furthermore, why is Jesus always portrayed seemingly as a beard-neatly-trimmed European ? Seems like evidence of men wanting things a certain way no ? For any that are interested: try do a google search for "the real face of Jesus".
<img src='http://popularmechanics.com/science/research/2002/12/real_face_jesus/images/tb_jesuslead-lg.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
There is something very charming about it.
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Entirely not the point I was making.
You say that there is not a speck of goodness in humanity, that we are just wallowing in filth, sin and evil. That we are incapable of doing anything but acts of unspeakable cruelness to one another.
How dare you say such things? How can you simply catagorise the entire human race as garbage...etc...
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There's no disputing that there are some really great things <b>of this world</b> that we ALL can enjoy, no matter what religion you have (or lack there of). As you've mentioned, great compositions of music, great works of art and movies, time spent with your family, the list goes on and on.
Alas, unfortunately, when it comes to the "spiritual" side of this life (for lack of a better term at this time in the morning) all of that stuff is only of worldly value and everyone is on an even playing field - sinful in the eyes of God, who is perfect.
(Repeated) It doesn't matter how much good you do, that is NOT the way to get to heaven.(End Repeat) No matter how many orhpans you've saved from a burning building or how many Conciertos in C Minor you have written, no Earthly works are going to get you to heaven. Only through one thing - faith in Jesus will get you there.
Edit - In response to the latter portion of your post. I can't speak for Ulatoh, but I don't think that he was insinuating that people that don't have God as their Savior are all the people that go out get drunk etc... I interpreted as the change that could happen IF someone, for instance, led a life that included all of those things. I thought of it as a more "personal" experience type of thing that he could tell about for himself, how exactly religion made a change in his life...but you'll have to wait for his response, sorry if I took that out of context.
Edit Jr. - In response to Dr. D, I am only comfortable proclaiming and debating what I believe, which in this case is Christianity. Any other people that aren't Christian/not religious at all (which seems to be the main populus in here), are welcome to state what they believe.
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So it doesn't matter if you actually follow the teachings of Jesus. It doesn't matter if you do treat others well, love thy neighbour and turn the other cheek. You can go around doing whatever the hell you feel like, as long as you have faith in Jesus.
That's gotta be one of the most screwed up teachings I've ever seen. You're saying that I can r4pe, pillage, murder and steal so long as I have faith. And it's not like things can get any worse for me if I do these things, because I'm already going to hell for being born! Essentially I have been given a free license to act as I wish, and no matter how terrible the "sins" I commit, I'm still gureenteed a spot in heaven. Real great stuff to base a code of morals and ethics around.
Heck if I was a more morally decadant person you could have signed me up for your religion. I cannot imagine a more corrupt and debaucherous theology.
Bosnian: Millions of Germans found the face of Adolf Hitler to be very charming as well. Forgive me if I don't quite understand your point.
That's gotta be one of the most screwed up teachings I've ever seen. You're saying that I can r4pe, pillage, murder and steal so long as I have faith. And it's not like things can get any worse for me if I do these things, because I'm already going to hell for being born! Essentially I have been given a free license to act as I wish, and no matter how terrible the "sins" I commit, I'm still gureenteed a spot in heaven. Real great stuff to base a code of morals and ethics around.
Heck if I was a more morally decadant person you could have signed me up for your religion. I cannot imagine a more corrupt and debaucherous theology.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Truer words could not have been written. If I wasn't married and you didn't have a girlfriend, Ryo, I'd marry you. Oops, thats the **** marrige thread! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<b>Dinosaurs</b>.
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So it doesn't matter if you actually follow the teachings of Jesus. It doesn't matter if you do treat others well, love thy neighbour and turn the other cheek. You can go around doing whatever the hell you feel like, as long as you have faith in Jesus.
That's gotta be one of the most screwed up teachings I've ever seen. You're saying that I can r4pe, pillage, murder and steal so long as I have faith. And it's not like things can get any worse for me if I do these things, because I'm already going to hell for being born! Essentially I have been given a free license to act as I wish, and no matter how terrible the "sins" I commit, I'm still gureenteed a spot in heaven. Real great stuff to base a code of morals and ethics around.
Heck if I was a more morally decadant person you could have signed me up for your religion. I cannot imagine a more corrupt and debaucherous theology.
Bosnian: Millions of Germans found the face of Adolf Hitler to be very charming as well. Forgive me if I don't quite understand your point. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you had faith in Jesus you would believe what he said and <b><i>wouldn't</i></b> act that way
God is perfect -> perfection is constant -> God doesn't change
If God is full of love and forgiveness then how could he have been any different before? The Bible makes the divine seem like a soap opera sometimes. You can't take all of it seriously. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I had to think about the "forgiving/wrathful" side of God for awhile; seems like a couple of things I forgot during my time in Sunday School.
Had the Israelites followed their part of the convenant with God perfectly, Christianity would of never come about. God was an exclusive deity for the Israelite people, and would of remained exclusive for the Israelites - they would of become rulers of the world had they not rejected God.
Of course, they did, which led to God's grace reaching out to us majority Gentiles. God's grace and forgiveness was initially an exclusive Israelite deal. Most other nations didn't get much of a chance for God's forgiveness when it came to God's grace simply because they weren't in on that deal. Even so, God's forgiveness once in a while would reach out (aka Ninevah).
Not sure if this really means anything to you, cause I don't know how much of the OT you dig. The OT scares me too... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<b>Dinosaurs</b>. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Answer:
I have actually heard that some Christian Fundamentalists say that God put the fossils there to test our faith.
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-edit- Yea thats me in the avatar, in all my splender! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<b>Dinosaurs</b>. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Answer:
I have actually heard that some Christian Fundamentalists say that God put the fossils there to test our faith.
???
-edit- Yea thats me in the avatar, in all my splender! :D <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
ungh... I need to restraining order from meeting with my fundamentalist bretheren.
Two Theories:
1. Don't read the Bible <i>literally</i>, read it <i>literarily</i>. I'll admit it took me a while to realize it, but for the bloody sakes, look at the description of symbolically (though I'm rather surprised that in that day and age, they were observant enough to notice women had one extra set of ribs more than men)
2. God is not limited by the law of time, (since Christians believe he can do anything). Seven days to Him is not seven days to us; see Theory of Relativity... Taking that in consideration, I wonder why Christians bother to dispute over abiogenesis at all. <i>Man came from dust</i>. An easy way to see it, dust + liquid = primordial soup. <b>TADAA!!!</b>. Still, I'd rather go with theory numero uno.
First of all Hitler was jewish, and second, it's doubtful Manson will find Jesus or even except Him when told about Him.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So it doesn't matter if you actually follow the teachings of Jesus. It doesn't matter if you do treat others well, love thy neighbour and turn the other cheek. You can go around doing whatever the hell you feel like, as long as you have faith in Jesus.
That's gotta be one of the most screwed up teachings I've ever seen. You're saying that I can r4pe, pillage, murder and steal so long as I have faith. And it's not like things can get any worse for me if I do these things, because I'm already going to hell for being born! Essentially I have been given a free license to act as I wish, and no matter how terrible the "sins" I commit, I'm still gureenteed a spot in heaven. Real great stuff to base a code of morals and ethics around.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you actually meant that you loved Jesus, you wouldn't do those things. Stop trying to twist what we say, it won't work.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Question:
Dinosaurs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know for certain because i'm not over 4000 years old, but I imagine they wouldn't fit in the arc due to size constraints. Oh well, one less man-eating behemoth race to worry about.
Listen, if you HAD faith and truly followed his teachings, you WOULN'T do those things in the first place. And if you <i>are</i> doing those things over and over again, then turn around going to people and saying "I truly believe in God and am going to heaven" then you're deceiving yourself.
Short Answer - What Epidemic said...he has a way with condensing what I'm thinking into a nice, concise sentence.
Also, on a side note, calling a widely accepted religion that I personally put a lot of belief in a "corrupt and debaucherous theology" is one thing...but comparing Jesus Christ to Adolph Hitler crosses the line of decency and respect for what other people believe...I'll just leave it at that...you're entitled to say whatever you want.