<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Isn't that a bit akward? So god wants people to believe in him so they would get a place in heaven? That's kind of like you having friends that are only your friends because you are rich.
Also I don't understand why god wants people to believe in him? For what does he need it for? Why is it so important? I guess all things aren't meant to be undestood. It's a great argument btw; "Mysterious are the ways of almighty<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dunno about you, but if I created something capable for thinking for itself, I sure wouldn't want it to deny my existence. Btw, I'm a baptist.
Iv always wondered a weird thing. Universe is big and all, but maybe we are just like a bacteria or some blob in some weird place. Like there is a bigger race of humans and we are like in a closet in a smaller corner. Ya know something weird like maybe we are being watched by bigger beings with mircoscopes and such. Be kinda freaky and cool if this were true. Maybe it is.
On OZ tv show :/ not sure of which culture...Greece I think believe the universe in on the tip of Orions eye lash. Pretty freaky if that were true also.
I remember on MIRC people talking about the universe. Best thing I heard was the human mind cannot comphrehend infinite and such.
-WHY- humans believe? There's a part of the human brain which produces "divine" hallucinations. that's WHY we believe the real question is why we have something inside of our heads which makes us see & think things like that.
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Aug 21 2003, 11:13 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Aug 21 2003, 11:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Thus, doesn't the existence of a religion - or even group of people - not accepting the void as ultimate 'hell' counter-prove this idea of a divine punishment? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Nem, go check out my posts in the Dante's Inferno thread in Off-Topic. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> I had a good long diatribe or two in there on how Hell isn't a "punishment", it's simply a state of being that sinners choose for themselves. The ancient Greeks end up in Limbo because that's how they imagined the afterlife, the wrathful end up in the swamp of their own wrath, and those who seek God end up in His presence.
If the void is what you really want, you can have it. Free will at its finest.
<!--QuoteBegin--Dread+Aug 21 2003, 01:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Aug 21 2003, 01:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If god gave man a free will, god shouldn't judge anyone by their actions because environment affects us too much.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't say anyone, but there are a few exceptions that come along here and there in which I would have to agree with you. But free will is also "the power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies." "Contrary to popular belief, Freedom is anything but Free. It has always come at a price." "There Must Be Sacrifice." It is up to us to fight the environment. God's justice is pure and he will judge not only their actions, but everything else within."It is taught elsewhere that man is responsible for his actions."
IMO this article explains the problem pretty well from a religious standpoint: <a href='http://www.lakemartin.net/~atallen/5/21.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.lakemartin.net/~atallen/5/21.htm</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--Dread+Aug 21 2003, 01:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Aug 21 2003, 01:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Good and evil are not very solid concepts. 500 years ago there was nothing wrong in slaying non-believers in the name of church or burning witches. It was actually a good thing to do. 10 commandments...well everyone actually brakes them on daily bases and how can we determine which one of them is more important than other? 1st commandment is the most important? I've already broken third and probably first in this thread only and murder is sixth <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good is not a very solid word <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->, it has over 20 definitions in the dictionary, so for who knows it could mean anything. So when you say it was a "good thing to do," it could mean anything. But really, those events in the past are what bar the gospel. Honestly, when Constantine took over and the church became a function of politics and power, the church lost its true image, the image of a loving savior in the gospels and the sense of choosing freely was lost. The "two kingdoms get confused." <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Historian Will Durant, in The Story of Civilization concludes: There is no greater drama in human record than the sight of a few Christians, scorned and oppressed by a sucecession of emperors, bearing all trials with a fierce tenacity, multiplying quietly, building order while their enemires generated chaos, fighting the sword with the word, brutality with hope, and at last defeating the strongest state that history has known. Caesar and Christ had met in the arena, and Christ had won.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As C.S. Lewis expressed it, Why is God landing in this enemy-occupied world in disguise and starting a sort of secret society to undermine the devil? Why is he not landing in force, invading it? Is it that He is not strong enough? Well, Christians think He is going to land in force; we do not know when. But we can guess why He is delaying: He wants to give us the chance of joining His side freely...God will invade. But I wonder whether people who ask God to interfere openly and directly in our world quite realise what it will be like when He does. When that happens, it is the end of the world. When the author walks on to the stage the play is over.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--Matthew+22:36-40--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Matthew @ 22:36-40)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Aug 21 2003, 02:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Aug 21 2003, 02:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A whole religion, Buddhism, is centered around entering Nirvana, a state quite comparable to what you describe as the effect 'promised' to sinners in your religion. This means in effect that a rather big group of people would love to achieve what your religion tells you is the biggest punishment possible, indeed, the punishment god reserves for those that commited a crime against Him, which would, as logic dictates, have to be horrible for every human possibly falling under it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Logic filtering in where it doesnt belong again <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
The greatest punishment imaginable for a Christian is living forever in total separation from God, God guarantees us eternal life no matter what, where we spend it, to use a cliche' is up to us.
And any man who belives Jesus is the Son of God who died on the cross so that our sins would be forgiven will enter heaven no matter what, because your sins are covered from Gods sight by the blood of Jesus, much the same way the sins of the Jewish people were hidden for many many years by the blood of animal sacrifices. By sacrificing one who was without flaw, and making him die for our sins, we are admitted as flawless, just as he is.
Long doctrine lesson short, Once you take Jesus as your Savior, unless you renounce him, nothing will keep you out of heaven
Science is obviously bogus for a few reasons..I'll get to them later, but I don't have time right now. Come up with your own reasons while I'm gone <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Dread+Aug 21 2003, 08:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Aug 21 2003, 08:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There is not a bit of sarcasm in that question. Why some humans believe in god?
Is it because they are taught to believe in it? Because they know of better religion? In that case, they are not true believers per se. They just keep up their fate because they heard from their parents that it's the right religion.
Is it because they hope to claim a place in heaven? If that's it, they are not real believers either because then they believe only to be sure that they wont be punished in afterlife.
Is it because it gives them power to deal with everyday life? Again the reason for believing is purely selfish. The believer loves god only because it makes him feel better. Gives him something in exchange.
Now on to the second part of the topic: Why should one believe in god?
It's proven that the believer gets no benefits for believing besides the emotional good feeling, which is arguable and can be attained with other ways. So it obviously comes to the afterlife. God Takes the believers to heaven or gives them 70 virgin bribes or you get to the big party in Valhalla. What ever turns you on. But can god possibly be so unfair? He must know that it's a lucky stroke where you are born and your sourroundings has awfull lot to do with your faith. Now is it my fault that I'm not born in a mormon family and that's why I can't go to heaven? Also God hasn't given a sign of his existence in two milleniums. Come on, he must've known that there would be several competitors with him and he can't possibly think that everyone would believe in him without proof. If it comes down to "good people believe in god" and "bad people don't", does that mean that heaven is just a place where he throws his good creations and hell a place where he puts his bad creations? That's not fair either because again, environment has a huge effect on what you become. In the bible it says that God gave people a free will, so that means that in gods eyes everyone can decide if they become bad(eg. criminals, murderers) or good(eg. really kind people). Right? Wrong. It's not the childs fault if he has bad parents and they let their child become a criminal. I bet Saddam wasn't a bad person when he was born. He was just affected by the environment and hence, he should go to heaven too. So every criminal and non-believer is just a victim of their surroundings!
I guess what I'm trying say here, is that there can't be hell. Everyone goes to heaven or you just seize to exist.
So there are my rambling arguments. What do you think? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Would you want to live knowing that it will end and mean nothing, or think to yourself that hey "why not" Sadly Im an atheist. I do not believe it simply because its not logical. How could a divine being thats "perfect" create something so "imperfect"?
So what if there is no peaceful after-life (or eternal pain) to look forward to/dread. Just means you have to make the most of this life- take a chance as such.
As far as religion goes: Everybody is entitled to their own opinion (in this case a set of beliefs-religion) about how the world and the universe works. Some use religion as a security blanket. Many can't be explained by science or 'pure reason'-this is no reason to criticize, no matter how 'loony' the concept maybe.
The only exception to this is when people use religion to justify causing harm to another person.
Yes I am an Atheist and personaly believe that many religions are full of hog-wash (remember Waco?) because they abuse peoples trust or preach total destruction/conversion of non-believers.
Science is not bogus-Alchemy was. 'Lets all drink Lead for immortality- blah!' and before one criticizes Science- remember it was built on the same shaky foundations as all religions are. 'Praise the sacred-yellow rock- we must be servants for a divine power!'
The_Real_QuasarHas the I.Q. of 12,000 P.E. TeachersJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 9998Members
edited August 2003
I don't follow any kind of religion except my own. I don't believe in God exactly, but I do believe in SOMETHING. There's got to be some kind of purpose to all of this, but I don't know what. All I can do is just live my life and see what happens, I guess. EDIT/EXPANSION/WHATEVER: One thing I positively believe in is that human beings can become greater than what they are. I know this for a fact because, and don't laugh, I really do posess telepathic sight. No joke. I've got no way of controlling it , but every now and then I'll see a little flash of the future. It could be in a minute or 50 years, but it happens. Once again, this post was completely serious.
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
<!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> Could you please clarify? Anyway, not to offend you, but it <i>also</i> possible to trick one self into believing such stuff
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Honestly, believing that matter just appeared out of nowhere is just as hard to believe as is it is to believe in a deity.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I was to give you salt taken from sea water would you disbelieve it? Matter did not come from nowhere, it gathers up, the same way all that dust under your bed did. If you are referring to the creation of the universe there are several very viable theories. Not the least of which is that two large comets collided and in the subsequent shockwave, bits and pieces of them were flung out, creating the various planets. Planets, stars, moons and the like are round due to the forces of gravity acting on them. Nothing comes from nothing and you cannot destroy matter, only change its form. Just because the pieces that made up the world were originally so small we couldn’t see them, doesn’t mean they appeared out of nowhere.
Again for the record I'm agnostic, not atheist. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Actually, modern quantum physics have beholded particles (-> matter) appearing spontaneously, with so far no known source or 'motivation'. I'm sure some of the physcracks around can supply further information.
A lot of people are saying that without religion, it would be wild and every-man-for-himself. I don't believe in a god. I don't believe in an afterlife, and I do believe that the universe was created by a chemical reaction. I don't believe in human knowledge AT ALL. (We know nothing, we just think we do. I posted about this a while ago and it got flamed to death, so I won't elaborate.) However, I'm kind. I help out people as best as I can, even if I hate them. Why? Because I see no reason NOT to.
However... If it WERE every-man-for-himself, would it really be that bad? We'd live in nature, just like every other animal. Other animals probably don't have religion. They get along just fine. Some are every-animal-for-themselves, but some help each other. It would still be that way with humans, if we have no religion. Personally, I'd PREFER it that way. Humans have turned from a mammal in to a virus that's infected the Earth, and is starting on other planets. We destroy anything in our way without remorse. It's sad, but true.
Now... To me, Earth is nothing but the result of a chemical reaction. To me, there is no supreme deity. There is no Heaven. There is no Hell. There is no Limbo nor any other form of afterlife to me. However, I'm happy. I'm happy because I can LIVE. I'm helping others live, and I'm having fun living. That's what I live for. I don't live to get in to an afterlife, like many religious people.
[EDIT] Oh, and I believe in psionic power. I've honestly and truly experienced it in a way that's impossible to be "just a coincidence." Many times. I guess this could be called my "religion." I intend to further myself, I've already been able to use a bit of my psi power. I also have a strong natural protection against mind entry. (NOTHING gets in.) This may seem off-topic, but this is a discussion of beliefs. I guess you could call my psionic belief a religion, just with no supreme deity. The idea of a supreme deity is silly to me.
Oh, and I have a belief that anything that ever existed still does. They're just hiding. (Cookie to whoever gets that reference. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->) [/EDIT]
I'm not a religious person, probably because my parents werent. I dont believe in God, and don't go to church or anything else. I personally think that the Church is more of a community thing than a religious ceremony. A lot of things it teaches are obvious, like not killing or stealing. However, a lot of "religion" stuff gets mixed in between that.
I think for most it is simply how they were raised. For other "converts" I think it is a combination of dissatisfaction with their lives in general and the need for security that attracts them. For still others they may have survived some sort of freak accident and attribute that to the will of a higher power.
- Why should one believe in God ? -
Good question ! With the state of the world as is... I don't know. It is also interesting to note that every side/faction claims that God is on their "side".
- Without a belief in God would the world be so terrible ? -
I don't think so. I think people naturally form communities etc. for the simple fact of protection. People are intelligent enough to realize that "every man for himself" only gets you so far in life. There is strength in numbers.
Not only that, but feelings and emotions would not suddenly vanish. Even an atheist can feel love. I for one would like to see less focus on "God" and more focus on "us". Humans need to evolve to the next level, where we're not so greedy and continually waging war on each other.
- Should you place all your faith in a holy book ? -
My opinion is no. Especially when it has undergone translations and editing.
<!--QuoteBegin--Xzilen+Aug 22 2003, 01:24 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Xzilen @ Aug 22 2003, 01:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Honestly, believing that matter just appeared out of nowhere is just as hard to believe as is it is to believe in a diety.
I could go on, but I'm sick of arguing with Atheists. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Its also equally as hard to believe that a supreme deity over control of something as vast as the universe popped out of nowhere, in my opinion all dieties of any form are just explenation of the natural forces behind the universe.
<i><span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>Oh and, I could go on but I'm tired of arguing with religious people.</span></i>
EDIT:Then again this isn't an arguement...its a discussion.
do you really believe in talking burning bushes or reincarnation of a human being or stone plates with words scratched in it, which suddelny appeared on a hill, or or or or
religion is an idea that spreaded rich people to keep the poor, uneducated, lazy people calm.
It's a tough question. Answer it and you'd be either an extreamly enlightened or rich individual <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Personally I think it comes down to a variety of factors, primary amongst them I believe is the rise of science in the past few centuries.
For almost all of human history the vast majority of the world's people have had a view of the world that is centered on religion. The great questions like "Why are we here", "How did this world come about", "what is my role here in this world?" "What happens when we die?", these are all answered by religion. It gives your life meaning, purpose, and understanding of the world around you. And for most of human existance we were content with this.
But inevitably there are those who question such things. There are those who notice that if you put a plant in darkness, it dies, there are people who find that if you put a candle in an air-tight container it will go out. Religion doesn't have such clear cut answers for findings like this. Governments are generally all in favour of religious fervour, but belief in the gods won't make your steel harder or your guns fire faster. Science creeps in, filling niches that religion doesn't occupy, and then it starts to intrude on the grounds that religion holds soveriegn. People start using science to explain how the world works.
This is where the two clash. Religion and science can't agree on the big questions of life, and with good reason: they are diametrically opposed camps. Religion generally in most cases where this has happened tries to quash scientific thought, and it fails, because the more you try and repress something, the more it has a tendincy to fight on, growing in strength rather than diminishing. Indeed, some religions florish exactly this way, through persecution. Science is little differant: people keep on learning about their world and writing about it; religion falters but doesn't die because science, even today, cannot answer the big questions.
Information is the key. Once you start getting a educated populace that is reading and thinking religion runs into trouble. Religion doesn't do as well in societies where everyone is discussing ideas: once movable type enters Europe there is a virtual explosion of literature after the publishing of the bible in German and English. People discuss everything from government to theology to the environment to new discoveries in far off lands. Once people start discussing such things, they start to notice the holes that religion has managed to cover up for so long. Yes, God created earth and all it's creatures, but why are there these bones we dug up of a creature ten times the size of a man? Yes, the devil sends disease to us, but what are these tiny creatures we found that seem to cause the plague, and why does cowpox protect against smallpox? Science starts answering these questions, and people start to find out all these aspects of their world that religion never told them about, the foundation of belief starts to break down.
So why isn't religion dead today? We know more about our world now than at any other time; with the Internet, universities, libraries, schooling for billions and global literacy rates at their highest ever, information flows everywhere. Science answers more questions about our world, and other worlds, every day, yet religion remains.
Science as yet hasn't answered those really big question. There isn't a mathamatical equation stateing that "The meaning of life is c - b / x-1 " Religion remains to do what it has always done: it gives people a direction and focus in their lives. It answers those really big questions whilst still leaving you free to know that you need oxygen to survive. Religion also helps people alleviate fears, such as death, and generally provides people with morals and ethics to help with their lives.
Also, there's one thing that science has neither solved nor intruded upon, and that is human nature. Because we can think, emote and express ourselves it's natural for us to hope that our short lives here on earth are not the end of our existance. It's sobering for anyone to think that there is nothing after death but the cold decay of flesh. We don't like to think of such things, and religion offers such a tempting removal from that thought. And it is tempting, oh so tempting. Yet for some, this is not enough. I am one of those people.
Raised a christian and attending catholic primary and high school, I was surrounded by theology and religion for 18 years. But as I learned more about this religion that I was part of, the more nothing seemed to add up. I couldn't accept that there was some kind of higher life, that there was anything after death but eternal darkness. I couldn't go on fooling my own mind into thinking that the peice of bread in my hand was the body of a man 2,000 years dead. So I left my faith and do not intend to return.
But sometimes I do look back and remember the almost child-like innocence of just believeing in something else. That there was someone watching, listening, someone there for you. That it wasn't just pure chance that I was here. It's tempting. And for many of the world's population, it remains the formation of their life. I do not pity them, nor think that they are stupid. Sometimes, I envy them. But their way is not mine. Others like me have their own reasons for becoming an atheist. As my sig shows, not everyone remains comfortable with the choice we have made.
<!--QuoteBegin--Dread+Aug 21 2003, 08:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Aug 21 2003, 08:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There is not a bit of sarcasm in that question. Why some humans believe in god?
Is it because they hope to claim a place in heaven? If that's it, they are not real believers either because then they believe only to be sure that they wont be punished in afterlife.
Is it because it gives them power to deal with everyday life? Again the reason for believing is purely selfish. The believer loves god only because it makes him feel better. Gives him something in exchange.
Now on to the second part of the topic: Why should one believe in god?
It's proven that the believer gets no benefits for believing besides the emotional good feeling, which is arguable and can be attained with other ways. So it obviously comes to the afterlife. God Takes the believers to heaven or gives them 70 virgin bribes or you get to the big party in Valhalla. What ever turns you on. But can god possibly be so unfair? He must know that it's a lucky stroke where you are born and your sourroundings has awfull lot to do with your faith. Now is it my fault that I'm not born in a mormon family and that's why I can't go to heaven? Also God hasn't given a sign of his existence in two milleniums. Come on, he must've known that there would be several competitors with him and he can't possibly think that everyone would believe in him without proof. If it comes down to "good people believe in god" and "bad people don't", does that mean that heaven is just a place where he throws his good creations and hell a place where he puts his bad creations? That's not fair either because again, environment has a huge effect on what you become. In the bible it says that God gave people a free will, so that means that in gods eyes everyone can decide if they become bad(eg. criminals, murderers) or good(eg. really kind people). Right? Wrong. It's not the childs fault if he has bad parents and they let their child become a criminal. I bet Saddam wasn't a bad person when he was born. He was just affected by the environment and hence, he should go to heaven too. So every criminal and non-believer is just a victim of their surroundings!
I guess what I'm trying say here, is that there can't be hell. Everyone goes to heaven or you just seize to exist.
So there are my rambling arguments. What do you think? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm going to reply to that first question, because I missed 4 pages of this discussion, hopefully I'll just be able to jump in.
To answer this question, I'm going to tell you why I believe in God, simply because I can't speak for all believers.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Is it because they are taught to believe in it? Because they know of better religion? In that case, they are not true believers per se. They just keep up their fate because they heard from their parents that it's the right religion. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've always believed there was a God, mainly for some of the reasons Nem described: Every culture does have a religion. developed, and, from what I've seen, the people that don't believe in a greater purpose, in general, are less" happy than those that do. Was I drawn to the Lord because I wanted to be happy? In part. But It makes sense that if there is a benevolant God, then he would reward his followers, somehow, not only in heaven, but also here on Earth. What better reward than the emotion of joy? I doubt we have many fathers on this board, but from what mine has described, the feeling that came from holding me or my sister in his hands... that can't be beaten. I hope I find that out some day.
But, back to the crux of the issue.
I believe in God, because nothing else makes sense to me. It doesn't make sense to me that after I die, all that I am becomes nothing but worm food. That the fireman who lived his life saving others, who died in the service of his fellow human beings, is null. That the point of his life was to save the lives of other's, who'se lives were null as well. It's a cycle taht has no point. It never goes anywhere. It has to have an end, has to have a greater purpose.
BUt what is that? If you believe that you're re-incarnated, that somehow you've earned what you've got from a past life, then why help the poor? Why set up a free clinic in the inner city if you can spring for a Porshe instead? There's no justice in that. And who grants the right to re-incarnate anyway? If he was good, he'd be just, and if he's bad, again, what's the point?
What about the belief that everyone ends up in heaven? A just god would do that, right? Just let everyone in?
So, my mother, who I honestly can't recall ever being malicious, and the unibomber are going to end up in the same place? Again, not just.
What about the whole "good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell" argument? Where's the line? I looked to the bible to find out.
You know where the line is? It's over your head. Over mine too. All the good I've ever done can't ever balance out the black sins I've committed. So how the hell is that just, am I supposed to get into heaven?
Christ. I believe he is the son of god, I believe, since he was divine, that he was perfect, that he was over the line, and that he chose to give that all up so that people like me, who fall short, can get into heaven. I've asked him for forgiveness, for his sins to apply to me, and admitted I've done wrong, will do wrong, and can't ever get into heaven on my own.
And that's it. No needing to go to church on sundays, no need to do anything, my fate is sealed.
So why do I keep beleiveing in God, if I don't need to do anything else?
Because what else here, on this earth, will matter? I found God because someone decided to reach out and share Him with me. Why shouldn't I do the same?
EDIT: Ryo: I urge you to check out a non-denominational Christian church, one that focuses on Christ, not the rituals of Catholicism.
<!--QuoteBegin--[strange]pIMPIN+Aug 22 2003, 01:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([strange]pIMPIN @ Aug 22 2003, 01:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> do you really believe in talking burning bushes or reincarnation of a human being or stone plates with words scratched in it, which suddelny appeared on a hill, or or or or
religion is an idea that spreaded rich people to keep the poor, uneducated, lazy people calm. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> At your last point:
Paul writes in his letter to the Phillipians, in chapter 1 verse 13, that the whole praetorian guard has heard and accepted the news about Christ Jesus. These guys were some of the best soldiers in the Roman army, not the poor, stupid masses you imply are the only religious ones.
Oh, and learn to capitalize and punctuate, nubcaek. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Aug 22 2003, 10:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Aug 22 2003, 10:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually, modern quantum physics have beholded particles (-> matter) appearing spontaneously, with so far no known source or 'motivation'. I'm sure some of the physcracks around can supply further information. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> My favorite theory "Free Particle Theory"
There are soo many great links between the free particle theory and metaphysics it’s not even funny. For instance, all the free particles that appear now are only limited in yield (potential) by the particles around them (symmetrical orientation) or something like that. But supposedly the first free particle to appear had nothing to compare itself to (asymmetrical orientation) therefore had infinite yield or potential (heheheh infinite universe) and all other particles appeared within that first one. If you follow that theory then the Kabala (Qhabalah, there are too many spellings to list them all here) will blow you away (the math side of it anyway, some of the angelic namesakes and pathnames are hard to follow if you aren’t a spiritual person)
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Aug 22 2003, 10:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Aug 22 2003, 10:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I've asked him for forgiveness, for his sins to apply to me, and admitted I've done wrong, will do wrong, and can't ever get into heaven on my own. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nice reply Legionnaired.
But let me just ask one question. Can I get to heaven? According to your personal belief of course. I mean is it my personal fault that I don't believe in god? Is it s sum of many factors, pre-determined or because I'm just evil in my soul? How can god give us the option to choose or not to choose to believe in him? I think no one can blame me for not believing because it's very much dependant on your state of mind at some specific moment. If god wants everyone to be happy and believe in him, why won't he give solid proof to the non-believers of 21st century? Everyone would believe and be just happy after that. Why he lets us live in uncertainty? How can I know for sure that which God I should pray because if I draw the wrong card, I'm going to hell, unless everyone gets to heaven.
How can you be sure that you are worshipping the right god? If we are to believe the Bible, the very foundation of christian religion, you will go to hell if you praise the wrong god but the same thing is said pretty much in every holy book.
<!--QuoteBegin--Dread+Aug 22 2003, 05:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Aug 22 2003, 05:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But let me just ask one question. Can I get to heaven? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I really wouldn't worry about that. Just live the best life you can.
If there is a God out there, you're in.
Saying that only a select group of individuals has access to a great after-life is in my opinion ridiculous. We are all human beings, whether we are "good" or "bad" does not alter that fact. Nevermind that people in remote areas never even heard of certain major religions for how long ? Were they all doomed to hell because of the "window period" where the message was spreading around the planet ? I don't buy that I'm sorry.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
It's also worth noting.
The Bible can clearly be seen where rewrites have occured, to appeal to the audience of that period. Take the ascension. The writing methods & style completely changes after the crucifixtion, implying that the entire Ascension section was in fact written by later peoples, to confirm to suspicious masses that Christ HAD to be God's son, and wasn't a simply highly successful prophet, like Mohammed.
Personal Belief ==========
I would like to believe there is a higher power, but I don't believe He was in any way responsible for our existance, and if He has noted it, he neither cares nor necessarily <b>likes us.</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--Bo Selecta+Aug 21 2003, 01:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bo Selecta @ Aug 21 2003, 01:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> -WHY- humans believe? There's a part of the human brain which produces "divine" hallucinations. that's WHY we believe the real question is why we have something inside of our heads which makes us see & think things like that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Because the human brain is advanced enough to do so. Starting with the Neanderthol and continuing with Cro Magnon (which is esentially us, same scientific classification, homo sapiens sapiens) The process of abstract thought began. With that humans realized that they, somehow, were different than other animals. But this process of "abstract thought", which is esentially all of the thoughts that have no purpose for survival, someone eventually thought, did someone or somthing make us different than theese animals? And that is basically where (imo) pegan religions came from. Now later along the road, you get prophits like Jesus and Mohammed, that spread the message of god and get people to beleive in god. Many religious stories have scientiffic explinations, and I think that that is a way that ancient peoples came up with to explain things that they do not understand.
I personally beleive in god or some deity. I beleive in afterlife. (long story short I was clinicaly dead for 4 minutes and remember stuff like bright white light in a tunnel like thing) I beleive that humans can figure out stuff with their sophisticated brains and that everything has a scientiffic explanation that we in our lifetime will never fully comprehend. The universe could be in some petry dish somewhere in another dimention or somthing. All I know is that there is somthing to beleive in (again imo).
<!--QuoteBegin--CommunistWithAGun+Aug 21 2003, 11:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Aug 21 2003, 11:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sadly Im an atheist. I do not believe it simply because its not logical. How could a divine being thats "perfect" create something so "imperfect"? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> God gave us free will, which means we are free to make decisions against him , and god allso gave us hearts and minds that desire, and bodies that die, I belive the idea is that we are supposed to come to God on our own free will, and that means more than simply not being able to disobey him.
Each persons sin affects other people, there is not a single sin that does not affect other people, and thats why sins are bad, because no matter which sin you pick, your evilness will affect other people. God loving his other children as much as you, gets miffed when you mess with them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->EDIT: Ryo: I urge you to check out a non-denominational Christian church, one that focuses on Christ, not the rituals of Catholicism. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok. I'll let that one slide. But don't you ever make such a suggestion ever again. I've got a born-again sister who harps at me that she'll "pray for my soul" and hopes with all her heart that I'll find "my true faith again". If you read anything I said you'd realise that I didn't turn away from religion because of Catholic ritual. I turned away from it because I didn't believe in god. I turned away because the idea of a higher power did not seem logical to me. I turned away because I saw that all religion was simply man's attempt to understand his world, nothing more. I don't say to you "Join me in atheism", everyone's choice is their own and I respect that someone's beliefs will be differant to mine. So please do not say to me "give it another shot" or "Oh that branch of Christianity is bad, this one shows you the ture path". I'm not interested and also fairly insulted.
But I will say that whilst I don't believe in a god nor in the divinity of a man named Jesus of Nazareth I do think that some of his teachings hold value in this world. You don't have to believe in a god to follow such wisdom as "treat others as you would like to be treated", "love your neighbour" or "help others". There are far worse things to base your morals and ethics around. So I guess you could call me an atheist-christian: I don't believe in god or christ, but I do believe that the teachings of a man named Jesus are worthy ideas to learn from.
<!--QuoteBegin--Dread+Aug 22 2003, 05:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Aug 22 2003, 05:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> [QUOTE=Legionnaired,Aug 22 2003, 10:50 PM] I've asked him for forgiveness, for his sins to apply to me, and admitted I've done wrong, will do wrong, and can't ever get into heaven on my own. [/QUOTE] Nice reply Legionnaired.
But let me just ask one question. Can I get to heaven? According to your personal belief of course. I mean is it my personal fault that I don't believe in god? Is it s sum of many factors, pre-determined or because I'm just evil in my soul? How can god give us the option to choose or not to choose to believe in him? I think no one can blame me for not believing because it's very much dependant on your state of mind at some specific moment. If god wants everyone to be happy and believe in him, why won't he give solid proof to the non-believers of 21st century? Everyone would believe and be just happy after that. Why he lets us live in uncertainty? How can I know for sure that which God I should pray because if I draw the wrong card, I'm going to hell, unless everyone gets to heaven.
How can you be sure that you are worshipping the right god? If we are to believe the Bible, the very foundation of christian religion, you will go to hell if you praise the wrong god but the same thing is said pretty much in every holy book.
Lots of questions there. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You as Dread, or you as the non-believer?
I've been in places before where I couldn't believe at all that there was that god, where it was impossible, and that I was on my own. Even after I did accept Christ into me heart, it happens, we're human, we doubt things.
I can't believe that a benevolent God would expect us to find him blindly. It's simply unjust. Which is where Romans 1:20 comes into play.
[QUOTE=Romans 1:20] For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.[/QUOTE]
Imagine yourself walking the park, and finding a dropped watch. You would, naturally, assume that someone dropped it. Sure, all of the elements included in that watch are in the Earth, the iron in the steel, the quartz inside... but you wouldn't assume that it simply came together.
By the laws of physics, matter coming into existance jsut does not happen. Can not happen. Is impossible. Perhaps there is another process there that we do not know of? perhaps another string of reactions involving the smallest building blocks of the universe. Perhaps. However, there comes a point, where as impossible as it is to understand, we come to a point where it is just as impossible to even observe those forces at work, be it of God, or of a natually occuring process.
So what do we have to go on? We know that 2000 years ago, a man named Jesus did walk the earth, and did claim to be the son of God, and did die crucified for the crime of blasphemy. I don't think you'll find very many historians that will deny that much. The only real valid debate is, was he the divine? the son of the God of the Israelites.
For that, there's a book written by Lee Strobel, a law student who started a case to refute Christ, but ended up becoming a Christian because of his studies. Anyway, It's called <a href='http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0310209307/qid%3D1052237404/sr%3D1-1/ref%3Dsr%5F1%5F3%5F1/104-9328563-4499922' target='_blank'><u>The Case For Christ</u></a>, and it's a good read, I highly recomend it.
My acceptance of Christ was based on more emotional conclusions that intellectual ones, to be perfectly honest, but that's a story for another time.
If you're thinking about this, and it's really impacting you, really making you think, I really do suggest reading through a gospel, Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John, and Romans. Really read through it, rip it apart, look at each verse.
The gospels are, of course, the story of Christ's life, and what that's all about, and Romans is Paul's stpe by step of why Christ was important, how it's applicable, and what we can do about it. I try to read them every so often, just to get myself re-centered on what's important in my life.
Comments
Also I don't understand why god wants people to believe in him? For what does he need it for? Why is it so important? I guess all things aren't meant to be undestood. It's a great argument btw; "Mysterious are the ways of almighty<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dunno about you, but if I created something capable for thinking for itself, I sure wouldn't want it to deny my existence. Btw, I'm a baptist.
On OZ tv show :/ not sure of which culture...Greece I think believe the universe in on the tip of Orions eye lash. Pretty freaky if that were true also.
I remember on MIRC people talking about the universe. Best thing I heard was the human mind cannot comphrehend infinite and such.
There's a part of the human brain which produces "divine" hallucinations.
that's WHY we believe
the real question is why we have something inside of our heads which makes us see & think things like that.
Nem, go check out my posts in the Dante's Inferno thread in Off-Topic. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> I had a good long diatribe or two in there on how Hell isn't a "punishment", it's simply a state of being that sinners choose for themselves. The ancient Greeks end up in Limbo because that's how they imagined the afterlife, the wrathful end up in the swamp of their own wrath, and those who seek God end up in His presence.
If the void is what you really want, you can have it. Free will at its finest.
I wouldn't say anyone, but there are a few exceptions that come along here and there in which I would have to agree with you. But free will is also "the power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies." "Contrary to popular belief, Freedom is anything but Free. It has always come at a price." "There Must Be Sacrifice." It is up to us to fight the environment. God's justice is pure and he will judge not only their actions, but everything else within."It is taught elsewhere that man is responsible for his actions."
IMO this article explains the problem pretty well from a religious standpoint:
<a href='http://www.lakemartin.net/~atallen/5/21.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.lakemartin.net/~atallen/5/21.htm</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--Dread+Aug 21 2003, 01:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Aug 21 2003, 01:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Good and evil are not very solid concepts. 500 years ago there was nothing wrong in slaying non-believers in the name of church or burning witches. It was actually a good thing to do. 10 commandments...well everyone actually brakes them on daily bases and how can we determine which one of them is more important than other? 1st commandment is the most important? I've already broken third and probably first in this thread only and murder is sixth
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good is not a very solid word <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->, it has over 20 definitions in the dictionary, so for who knows it could mean anything. So when you say it was a "good thing to do," it could mean anything. But really, those events in the past are what bar the gospel.
Honestly, when Constantine took over and the church became a function of politics and power, the church lost its true image, the image of a loving savior in the gospels and the sense of choosing freely was lost. The "two kingdoms get confused."
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Historian Will Durant, in The Story of Civilization concludes: There is no greater drama in human record than the sight of a few Christians, scorned and oppressed by a sucecession of emperors, bearing all trials with a fierce tenacity, multiplying quietly, building order while their enemires generated chaos, fighting the sword with the word, brutality with hope, and at last defeating the strongest state that history has known. Caesar and Christ had met in the arena, and Christ had won.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As C.S. Lewis expressed it, Why is God landing in this enemy-occupied world in disguise and starting a sort of secret society to undermine the devil? Why is he not landing in force, invading it? Is it that He is not strong enough? Well, Christians think He is going to land in force; we do not know when. But we can guess why He is delaying: He wants to give us the chance of joining His side freely...God will invade. But I wonder whether people who ask God to interfere openly and directly in our world quite realise what it will be like when He does. When that happens, it is the end of the world. When the author walks on to the stage the play is over.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Matthew+22:36-40--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Matthew @ 22:36-40)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Logic filtering in where it doesnt belong again <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
The greatest punishment imaginable for a Christian is living forever in total separation from God, God guarantees us eternal life no matter what, where we spend it, to use a cliche' is up to us.
And any man who belives Jesus is the Son of God who died on the cross so that our sins would be forgiven will enter heaven no matter what, because your sins are covered from Gods sight by the blood of Jesus, much the same way the sins of the Jewish people were hidden for many many years by the blood of animal sacrifices. By sacrificing one who was without flaw, and making him die for our sins, we are admitted as flawless, just as he is.
Long doctrine lesson short, Once you take Jesus as your Savior, unless you renounce him, nothing will keep you out of heaven
Honestly, believing that matter just appeared out of nowhere is just as hard to believe as is it is to believe in a diety.
I could go on, but I'm sick of arguing with Atheists.
Science is obviously bogus for a few reasons..I'll get to them later, but I don't have time right now. Come up with your own reasons while I'm gone <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Is it because they are taught to believe in it? Because they know of better religion? In that case, they are not true believers per se. They just keep up their fate because they heard from their parents that it's the right religion.
Is it because they hope to claim a place in heaven? If that's it, they are not real believers either because then they believe only to be sure that they wont be punished in afterlife.
Is it because it gives them power to deal with everyday life? Again the reason for believing is purely selfish. The believer loves god only because it makes him feel better. Gives him something in exchange.
Now on to the second part of the topic: Why should one believe in god?
It's proven that the believer gets no benefits for believing besides the emotional good feeling, which is arguable and can be attained with other ways. So it obviously comes to the afterlife. God Takes the believers to heaven or gives them 70 virgin bribes or you get to the big party in Valhalla. What ever turns you on. But can god possibly be so unfair? He must know that it's a lucky stroke where you are born and your sourroundings has awfull lot to do with your faith. Now is it my fault that I'm not born in a mormon family and that's why I can't go to heaven? Also God hasn't given a sign of his existence in two milleniums. Come on, he must've known that there would be several competitors with him and he can't possibly think that everyone would believe in him without proof. If it comes down to "good people believe in god" and "bad people don't", does that mean that heaven is just a place where he throws his good creations and hell a place where he puts his bad creations? That's not fair either because again, environment has a huge effect on what you become. In the bible it says that God gave people a free will, so that means that in gods eyes everyone can decide if they become bad(eg. criminals, murderers) or good(eg. really kind people). Right? Wrong. It's not the childs fault if he has bad parents and they let their child become a criminal. I bet Saddam wasn't a bad person when he was born. He was just affected by the environment and hence, he should go to heaven too. So every criminal and non-believer is just a victim of their surroundings!
I guess what I'm trying say here, is that there can't be hell. Everyone goes to heaven or you just seize to exist.
So there are my rambling arguments. What do you think? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would you want to live knowing that it will end and mean nothing, or think to yourself that hey "why not"
Sadly Im an atheist. I do not believe it simply because its not logical. How could a divine being thats "perfect" create something so "imperfect"?
So what if there is no peaceful after-life (or eternal pain) to look forward to/dread. Just means you have to make the most of this life- take a chance as such.
As far as religion goes:
Everybody is entitled to their own opinion (in this case a set of beliefs-religion) about how the world and the universe works. Some use religion as a security blanket. Many can't be explained by science or 'pure reason'-this is no reason to criticize, no matter how 'loony' the concept maybe.
The only exception to this is when people use religion to justify causing harm to another person.
Yes I am an Atheist and personaly believe that many religions are full of hog-wash (remember Waco?) because they abuse peoples trust or preach total destruction/conversion of non-believers.
Science is not bogus-Alchemy was. 'Lets all drink Lead for immortality- blah!'
and before one criticizes Science- remember it was built on the same shaky foundations as all religions are. 'Praise the sacred-yellow rock- we must be servants for a divine power!'
Any offence is unintentional.
GCD
All I can do is just live my life and see what happens, I guess.
EDIT/EXPANSION/WHATEVER: One thing I positively believe in is that human beings can become greater than what they are. I know this for a fact because, and don't laugh, I really do posess telepathic sight.
No joke.
I've got no way of controlling it , but every now and then I'll see a little flash of the future. It could be in a minute or 50 years, but it happens.
Once again, this post was completely serious.
Anyway, not to offend you, but it <i>also</i> possible to trick one self into believing such stuff
If I was to give you salt taken from sea water would you disbelieve it? Matter did not come from nowhere, it gathers up, the same way all that dust under your bed did. If you are referring to the creation of the universe there are several very viable theories. Not the least of which is that two large comets collided and in the subsequent shockwave, bits and pieces of them were flung out, creating the various planets. Planets, stars, moons and the like are round due to the forces of gravity acting on them. Nothing comes from nothing and you cannot destroy matter, only change its form. Just because the pieces that made up the world were originally so small we couldn’t see them, doesn’t mean they appeared out of nowhere.
Again for the record I'm agnostic, not atheist. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
However... If it WERE every-man-for-himself, would it really be that bad? We'd live in nature, just like every other animal. Other animals probably don't have religion. They get along just fine. Some are every-animal-for-themselves, but some help each other. It would still be that way with humans, if we have no religion. Personally, I'd PREFER it that way. Humans have turned from a mammal in to a virus that's infected the Earth, and is starting on other planets. We destroy anything in our way without remorse. It's sad, but true.
Now... To me, Earth is nothing but the result of a chemical reaction. To me, there is no supreme deity. There is no Heaven. There is no Hell. There is no Limbo nor any other form of afterlife to me. However, I'm happy. I'm happy because I can LIVE. I'm helping others live, and I'm having fun living. That's what I live for. I don't live to get in to an afterlife, like many religious people.
[EDIT]
Oh, and I believe in psionic power. I've honestly and truly experienced it in a way that's impossible to be "just a coincidence." Many times. I guess this could be called my "religion." I intend to further myself, I've already been able to use a bit of my psi power. I also have a strong natural protection against mind entry. (NOTHING gets in.) This may seem off-topic, but this is a discussion of beliefs. I guess you could call my psionic belief a religion, just with no supreme deity. The idea of a supreme deity is silly to me.
Oh, and I have a belief that anything that ever existed still does. They're just hiding. (Cookie to whoever gets that reference. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->)
[/EDIT]
I think for most it is simply how they were raised. For other "converts" I think it is a combination of dissatisfaction with their lives in general and the need for security that attracts them. For still others they may have survived some sort of freak accident and attribute that to the will of a higher power.
- Why should one believe in God ? -
Good question ! With the state of the world as is... I don't know. It is also interesting to note that every side/faction claims that God is on their "side".
- Without a belief in God would the world be so terrible ? -
I don't think so. I think people naturally form communities etc. for the simple fact of protection. People are intelligent enough to realize that "every man for himself" only gets you so far in life. There is strength in numbers.
Not only that, but feelings and emotions would not suddenly vanish. Even an atheist can feel love. I for one would like to see less focus on "God" and more focus on "us". Humans need to evolve to the next level, where we're not so greedy and continually waging war on each other.
- Should you place all your faith in a holy book ? -
My opinion is no. Especially when it has undergone translations and editing.
- Personal belief -
Agnostic.
I could go on, but I'm sick of arguing with Atheists. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its also equally as hard to believe that a supreme deity over control of something as vast as the universe popped out of nowhere, in my opinion all dieties of any form are just explenation of the natural forces behind the universe.
<i><span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>Oh and, I could go on but I'm tired of arguing with religious people.</span></i>
EDIT:Then again this isn't an arguement...its a discussion.
religion is an idea that spreaded rich people to keep the poor, uneducated, lazy people calm.
Personally I think it comes down to a variety of factors, primary amongst them I believe is the rise of science in the past few centuries.
For almost all of human history the vast majority of the world's people have had a view of the world that is centered on religion. The great questions like "Why are we here", "How did this world come about", "what is my role here in this world?" "What happens when we die?", these are all answered by religion. It gives your life meaning, purpose, and understanding of the world around you. And for most of human existance we were content with this.
But inevitably there are those who question such things. There are those who notice that if you put a plant in darkness, it dies, there are people who find that if you put a candle in an air-tight container it will go out. Religion doesn't have such clear cut answers for findings like this. Governments are generally all in favour of religious fervour, but belief in the gods won't make your steel harder or your guns fire faster. Science creeps in, filling niches that religion doesn't occupy, and then it starts to intrude on the grounds that religion holds soveriegn. People start using science to explain how the world works.
This is where the two clash. Religion and science can't agree on the big questions of life, and with good reason: they are diametrically opposed camps. Religion generally in most cases where this has happened tries to quash scientific thought, and it fails, because the more you try and repress something, the more it has a tendincy to fight on, growing in strength rather than diminishing. Indeed, some religions florish exactly this way, through persecution. Science is little differant: people keep on learning about their world and writing about it; religion falters but doesn't die because science, even today, cannot answer the big questions.
Information is the key. Once you start getting a educated populace that is reading and thinking religion runs into trouble. Religion doesn't do as well in societies where everyone is discussing ideas: once movable type enters Europe there is a virtual explosion of literature after the publishing of the bible in German and English. People discuss everything from government to theology to the environment to new discoveries in far off lands. Once people start discussing such things, they start to notice the holes that religion has managed to cover up for so long. Yes, God created earth and all it's creatures, but why are there these bones we dug up of a creature ten times the size of a man? Yes, the devil sends disease to us, but what are these tiny creatures we found that seem to cause the plague, and why does cowpox protect against smallpox? Science starts answering these questions, and people start to find out all these aspects of their world that religion never told them about, the foundation of belief starts to break down.
So why isn't religion dead today? We know more about our world now than at any other time; with the Internet, universities, libraries, schooling for billions and global literacy rates at their highest ever, information flows everywhere. Science answers more questions about our world, and other worlds, every day, yet religion remains.
Science as yet hasn't answered those really big question. There isn't a mathamatical equation stateing that "The meaning of life is c - b / x-1 " Religion remains to do what it has always done: it gives people a direction and focus in their lives. It answers those really big questions whilst still leaving you free to know that you need oxygen to survive. Religion also helps people alleviate fears, such as death, and generally provides people with morals and ethics to help with their lives.
Also, there's one thing that science has neither solved nor intruded upon, and that is human nature. Because we can think, emote and express ourselves it's natural for us to hope that our short lives here on earth are not the end of our existance. It's sobering for anyone to think that there is nothing after death but the cold decay of flesh. We don't like to think of such things, and religion offers such a tempting removal from that thought. And it is tempting, oh so tempting. Yet for some, this is not enough. I am one of those people.
Raised a christian and attending catholic primary and high school, I was surrounded by theology and religion for 18 years. But as I learned more about this religion that I was part of, the more nothing seemed to add up. I couldn't accept that there was some kind of higher life, that there was anything after death but eternal darkness. I couldn't go on fooling my own mind into thinking that the peice of bread in my hand was the body of a man 2,000 years dead. So I left my faith and do not intend to return.
But sometimes I do look back and remember the almost child-like innocence of just believeing in something else. That there was someone watching, listening, someone there for you. That it wasn't just pure chance that I was here. It's tempting. And for many of the world's population, it remains the formation of their life. I do not pity them, nor think that they are stupid. Sometimes, I envy them. But their way is not mine. Others like me have their own reasons for becoming an atheist. As my sig shows, not everyone remains comfortable with the choice we have made.
Is it because they hope to claim a place in heaven? If that's it, they are not real believers either because then they believe only to be sure that they wont be punished in afterlife.
Is it because it gives them power to deal with everyday life? Again the reason for believing is purely selfish. The believer loves god only because it makes him feel better. Gives him something in exchange.
Now on to the second part of the topic: Why should one believe in god?
It's proven that the believer gets no benefits for believing besides the emotional good feeling, which is arguable and can be attained with other ways. So it obviously comes to the afterlife. God Takes the believers to heaven or gives them 70 virgin bribes or you get to the big party in Valhalla. What ever turns you on. But can god possibly be so unfair? He must know that it's a lucky stroke where you are born and your sourroundings has awfull lot to do with your faith. Now is it my fault that I'm not born in a mormon family and that's why I can't go to heaven? Also God hasn't given a sign of his existence in two milleniums. Come on, he must've known that there would be several competitors with him and he can't possibly think that everyone would believe in him without proof. If it comes down to "good people believe in god" and "bad people don't", does that mean that heaven is just a place where he throws his good creations and hell a place where he puts his bad creations? That's not fair either because again, environment has a huge effect on what you become. In the bible it says that God gave people a free will, so that means that in gods eyes everyone can decide if they become bad(eg. criminals, murderers) or good(eg. really kind people). Right? Wrong. It's not the childs fault if he has bad parents and they let their child become a criminal. I bet Saddam wasn't a bad person when he was born. He was just affected by the environment and hence, he should go to heaven too. So every criminal and non-believer is just a victim of their surroundings!
I guess what I'm trying say here, is that there can't be hell. Everyone goes to heaven or you just seize to exist.
So there are my rambling arguments. What do you think? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm going to reply to that first question, because I missed 4 pages of this discussion, hopefully I'll just be able to jump in.
To answer this question, I'm going to tell you why I believe in God, simply because I can't speak for all believers.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Is it because they are taught to believe in it? Because they know of better religion? In that case, they are not true believers per se. They just keep up their fate because they heard from their parents that it's the right religion.
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I've always believed there was a God, mainly for some of the reasons Nem described: Every culture does have a religion. developed, and, from what I've seen, the people that don't believe in a greater purpose, in general, are less" happy than those that do. Was I drawn to the Lord because I wanted to be happy? In part. But It makes sense that if there is a benevolant God, then he would reward his followers, somehow, not only in heaven, but also here on Earth. What better reward than the emotion of joy? I doubt we have many fathers on this board, but from what mine has described, the feeling that came from holding me or my sister in his hands... that can't be beaten. I hope I find that out some day.
But, back to the crux of the issue.
I believe in God, because nothing else makes sense to me. It doesn't make sense to me that after I die, all that I am becomes nothing but worm food. That the fireman who lived his life saving others, who died in the service of his fellow human beings, is null. That the point of his life was to save the lives of other's, who'se lives were null as well. It's a cycle taht has no point. It never goes anywhere. It has to have an end, has to have a greater purpose.
BUt what is that? If you believe that you're re-incarnated, that somehow you've earned what you've got from a past life, then why help the poor? Why set up a free clinic in the inner city if you can spring for a Porshe instead? There's no justice in that. And who grants the right to re-incarnate anyway? If he was good, he'd be just, and if he's bad, again, what's the point?
What about the belief that everyone ends up in heaven? A just god would do that, right? Just let everyone in?
So, my mother, who I honestly can't recall ever being malicious, and the unibomber are going to end up in the same place? Again, not just.
What about the whole "good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell" argument? Where's the line? I looked to the bible to find out.
You know where the line is? It's over your head. Over mine too. All the good I've ever done can't ever balance out the black sins I've committed. So how the hell is that just, am I supposed to get into heaven?
Christ. I believe he is the son of god, I believe, since he was divine, that he was perfect, that he was over the line, and that he chose to give that all up so that people like me, who fall short, can get into heaven. I've asked him for forgiveness, for his sins to apply to me, and admitted I've done wrong, will do wrong, and can't ever get into heaven on my own.
And that's it. No needing to go to church on sundays, no need to do anything, my fate is sealed.
So why do I keep beleiveing in God, if I don't need to do anything else?
Because what else here, on this earth, will matter? I found God because someone decided to reach out and share Him with me. Why shouldn't I do the same?
EDIT: Ryo: I urge you to check out a non-denominational Christian church, one that focuses on Christ, not the rituals of Catholicism.
religion is an idea that spreaded rich people to keep the poor, uneducated, lazy people calm. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
At your last point:
Paul writes in his letter to the Phillipians, in chapter 1 verse 13, that the whole praetorian guard has heard and accepted the news about Christ Jesus. These guys were some of the best soldiers in the Roman army, not the poor, stupid masses you imply are the only religious ones.
Oh, and learn to capitalize and punctuate, nubcaek. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
My favorite theory "Free Particle Theory"
There are soo many great links between the free particle theory and metaphysics it’s not even funny. For instance, all the free particles that appear now are only limited in yield (potential) by the particles around them (symmetrical orientation) or something like that. But supposedly the first free particle to appear had nothing to compare itself to (asymmetrical orientation) therefore had infinite yield or potential (heheheh infinite universe) and all other particles appeared within that first one. If you follow that theory then the Kabala (Qhabalah, there are too many spellings to list them all here) will blow you away (the math side of it anyway, some of the angelic namesakes and pathnames are hard to follow if you aren’t a spiritual person)
Nice reply Legionnaired.
But let me just ask one question. Can I get to heaven? According to your personal belief of course. I mean is it my personal fault that I don't believe in god? Is it s sum of many factors, pre-determined or because I'm just evil in my soul? How can god give us the option to choose or not to choose to believe in him? I think no one can blame me for not believing because it's very much dependant on your state of mind at some specific moment. If god wants everyone to be happy and believe in him, why won't he give solid proof to the non-believers of 21st century? Everyone would believe and be just happy after that. Why he lets us live in uncertainty? How can I know for sure that which God I should pray because if I draw the wrong card, I'm going to hell, unless everyone gets to heaven.
How can you be sure that you are worshipping the right god? If we are to believe the Bible, the very foundation of christian religion, you will go to hell if you praise the wrong god but the same thing is said pretty much in every holy book.
Lots of questions there.
I really wouldn't worry about that. Just live the best life you can.
If there is a God out there, you're in.
Saying that only a select group of individuals has access to a great after-life is in my opinion ridiculous. We are all human beings, whether we are "good" or "bad" does not alter that fact. Nevermind that people in remote areas never even heard of certain major religions for how long ? Were they all doomed to hell because of the "window period" where the message was spreading around the planet ? I don't buy that I'm sorry.
The Bible can clearly be seen where rewrites have occured, to appeal to the audience of that period. Take the ascension. The writing methods & style completely changes after the crucifixtion, implying that the entire Ascension section was in fact written by later peoples, to confirm to suspicious masses that Christ HAD to be God's son, and wasn't a simply highly successful prophet, like Mohammed.
Personal Belief
==========
I would like to believe there is a higher power, but I don't believe He was in any way responsible for our existance, and if He has noted it, he neither cares nor necessarily <b>likes us.</b>
There's a part of the human brain which produces "divine" hallucinations.
that's WHY we believe
the real question is why we have something inside of our heads which makes us see & think things like that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because the human brain is advanced enough to do so. Starting with the Neanderthol and continuing with Cro Magnon (which is esentially us, same scientific classification, homo sapiens sapiens) The process of abstract thought began. With that humans realized that they, somehow, were different than other animals. But this process of "abstract thought", which is esentially all of the thoughts that have no purpose for survival, someone eventually thought, did someone or somthing make us different than theese animals? And that is basically where (imo) pegan religions came from. Now later along the road, you get prophits like Jesus and Mohammed, that spread the message of god and get people to beleive in god. Many religious stories have scientiffic explinations, and I think that that is a way that ancient peoples came up with to explain things that they do not understand.
I personally beleive in god or some deity. I beleive in afterlife. (long story short I was clinicaly dead for 4 minutes and remember stuff like bright white light in a tunnel like thing) I beleive that humans can figure out stuff with their sophisticated brains and that everything has a scientiffic explanation that we in our lifetime will never fully comprehend. The universe could be in some petry dish somewhere in another dimention or somthing. All I know is that there is somthing to beleive in (again imo).
Sadly Im an atheist. I do not believe it simply because its not logical. How could a divine being thats "perfect" create something so "imperfect"? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
God gave us free will, which means we are free to make decisions against him , and god allso gave us hearts and minds that desire, and bodies that die, I belive the idea is that we are supposed to come to God on our own free will, and that means more than simply not being able to disobey him.
Each persons sin affects other people, there is not a single sin that does not affect other people, and thats why sins are bad, because no matter which sin you pick, your evilness will affect other people. God loving his other children as much as you, gets miffed when you mess with them.
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Ok. I'll let that one slide. But don't you ever make such a suggestion ever again. I've got a born-again sister who harps at me that she'll "pray for my soul" and hopes with all her heart that I'll find "my true faith again". If you read anything I said you'd realise that I didn't turn away from religion because of Catholic ritual. I turned away from it because I didn't believe in god. I turned away because the idea of a higher power did not seem logical to me. I turned away because I saw that all religion was simply man's attempt to understand his world, nothing more. I don't say to you "Join me in atheism", everyone's choice is their own and I respect that someone's beliefs will be differant to mine. So please do not say to me "give it another shot" or "Oh that branch of Christianity is bad, this one shows you the ture path". I'm not interested and also fairly insulted.
But I will say that whilst I don't believe in a god nor in the divinity of a man named Jesus of Nazareth I do think that some of his teachings hold value in this world. You don't have to believe in a god to follow such wisdom as "treat others as you would like to be treated", "love your neighbour" or "help others". There are far worse things to base your morals and ethics around. So I guess you could call me an atheist-christian: I don't believe in god or christ, but I do believe that the teachings of a man named Jesus are worthy ideas to learn from.
Nice reply Legionnaired.
But let me just ask one question. Can I get to heaven? According to your personal belief of course. I mean is it my personal fault that I don't believe in god? Is it s sum of many factors, pre-determined or because I'm just evil in my soul? How can god give us the option to choose or not to choose to believe in him? I think no one can blame me for not believing because it's very much dependant on your state of mind at some specific moment. If god wants everyone to be happy and believe in him, why won't he give solid proof to the non-believers of 21st century? Everyone would believe and be just happy after that. Why he lets us live in uncertainty? How can I know for sure that which God I should pray because if I draw the wrong card, I'm going to hell, unless everyone gets to heaven.
How can you be sure that you are worshipping the right god? If we are to believe the Bible, the very foundation of christian religion, you will go to hell if you praise the wrong god but the same thing is said pretty much in every holy book.
Lots of questions there. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You as Dread, or you as the non-believer?
I've been in places before where I couldn't believe at all that there was that god, where it was impossible, and that I was on my own. Even after I did accept Christ into me heart, it happens, we're human, we doubt things.
I can't believe that a benevolent God would expect us to find him blindly. It's simply unjust. Which is where Romans 1:20 comes into play.
[QUOTE=Romans 1:20] For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.[/QUOTE]
Imagine yourself walking the park, and finding a dropped watch. You would, naturally, assume that someone dropped it. Sure, all of the elements included in that watch are in the Earth, the iron in the steel, the quartz inside... but you wouldn't assume that it simply came together.
By the laws of physics, matter coming into existance jsut does not happen. Can not happen. Is impossible. Perhaps there is another process there that we do not know of? perhaps another string of reactions involving the smallest building blocks of the universe. Perhaps. However, there comes a point, where as impossible as it is to understand, we come to a point where it is just as impossible to even observe those forces at work, be it of God, or of a natually occuring process.
So what do we have to go on? We know that 2000 years ago, a man named Jesus did walk the earth, and did claim to be the son of God, and did die crucified for the crime of blasphemy. I don't think you'll find very many historians that will deny that much. The only real valid debate is, was he the divine? the son of the God of the Israelites.
For that, there's a book written by Lee Strobel, a law student who started a case to refute Christ, but ended up becoming a Christian because of his studies. Anyway, It's called <a href='http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0310209307/qid%3D1052237404/sr%3D1-1/ref%3Dsr%5F1%5F3%5F1/104-9328563-4499922' target='_blank'><u>The Case For Christ</u></a>, and it's a good read, I highly recomend it.
My acceptance of Christ was based on more emotional conclusions that intellectual ones, to be perfectly honest, but that's a story for another time.
If you're thinking about this, and it's really impacting you, really making you think, I really do suggest reading through a gospel, Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John, and Romans. Really read through it, rip it apart, look at each verse.
The gospels are, of course, the story of Christ's life, and what that's all about, and Romans is Paul's stpe by step of why Christ was important, how it's applicable, and what we can do about it. I try to read them every so often, just to get myself re-centered on what's important in my life.