The Matrix Reloaded - Plot Discussion

DOOManiac · May 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">Warning: this whole thread is spoilers</div><b><span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>WARNING!</span>

<span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'>This whole thread assumes you've already seen Reloaded and want to talk about it. And as such, yes there will be spoilers, and no we won't bother to label each and every instance of a spoiler. So if you haven't seen Reloaded yet, it is in your best interest to not read this thread. Don't say I didn't warn you.</span></b>

Also note: This isn't a thread of "omgz the reloaded sux oloo" or "omg weeee matrix is win yay yay". Its for well thought out discussion of the events of the movie. If you don't have anything to contribute, please do not post.

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Still here? Good.

I for one LOVED the expansion of the story in Reloaded. There is a lot that can be missed the first time you see it, much like the original, so it only really makes sense after many viewings. The end of Reloaded brings up a whole lot of issues for discussion. Lots of people probably missed them, and understandably so. A lot of it I didn't figure out till running it over and over again in my head.

Several things stick out and make me go "hmm" in wondering.

- The theme of the movie seems to revolve around rebooting the matrix (hence the title), and the necessary guiding of The One (in Neo's case he's the 6th One) to a point where he must choose to kill everyone or save a select few. This keeps the human population in check, making sure that they don't get too many people and become a serious threat to the machines.

Why is The One even there? As the matrix programmer guy explained, only 99% of the people accepted the program. 1% rejected it. Neo is part of that 1%. They become The One. And to keep them from realizing all their power, the machines use a fabricated story of prophecy to steer The One on a wrong path...

- The Oracle. Rogue program helping the humans? Or is she...

Near the beginning of the movie, we learn that, as some suspected from the first movie, that the Oracle is actually not a person in the Matrix but rather a program inside of the Matrix. The movie explains that she is simply acting on her own and really shouldn't be helping the humans.

But is this really the case? I believe that the Oracle is in fact doing exactly what she is supposed to be doing. The humans bring their potentials to her and she tells them ALL that they are not The One, hopefully causing them to not find the power hidden within them. In Neo and the 5 other's cases, they find that power anyway. So from here the Oracle starts them on the path of finding the Keymaster and going to the mainframe to fulfill the prophecy.

If The One survives this ordeal, then they have shown that they truely are a great power and could be a threat to the machines. Good thing they're walking right into a trap with only two choices: Let everyone die, or let almost everyone die.

Thus, the Oracle assists in accomplishing exactly the machines have planned.

- Neo stopping the sentinals in The Real World.

I'm quite sure nobody is meant to understand this yet, but hey, speculating is always fun. :)

Does this mean that Neo is now somehow connected to the machines? Even if so, its not like there's a Wireless NAT in his brain, so how the hell short of supernatural mumbo jumbo did he stop them?

Or, is the Real World, in actuality, another Matrix? A secondary, fail-safe Matrix for those whom don't accept the other one?

And at the very end we see that the guy whose body was taken over by Smith is ALSO in a coma, just like Neo. Perhaps these two share a bigger connection than we thought?

I'm very interested to hear what you guys have to say about these topics, as well as any new things you guys care to think of. :)

Burr · May 2003

IMO, the end was cheezy, especially with the music. I think that they could have showed a more subtler way to do it.

Still a great movie though. What you said about the second matrix failsafe makes me wonder now.

Confused · May 2003

i 5really like the french guy and his discussion of casuality my self and the import of why.

Burr · May 2003

MAybe Im just looking into this too much, but it seems like certain characters had certain words attributed to them. THe oracle kept saying "understand" and smith was "purpose"

maybe im just crazy.

Renegade · May 2003

The thing that drew me to the possibility of Zion being the second Matrix was a line from "the Architect":

"We've destroyed Zion six times, and we're becoming very good at it"

You too may have a revalation just as I did, but mine was in the theater itself, watching the movie for the first time.

TenSix · May 2003

Yeah, but if there is a 2nd Matrix why can't Neo "see" the code? Hrm...perhaps because seeing the code is an illusion meant only to work for him in the Matrix and not in the Real World Matrix?

I would say more, but I wanted to make French Toast right now, but then I found out we have no bread. So im very ****. Argh, I REALLY wanted French Toast.

Infinitum · May 2003

The whole 2nd layer of too the matrix just confuses me.....

Does this mean that the machines we've seen up too now aren't the real ones, and we've yet too see the actual designs?

Also... on a whim just bought Enter The Matrix for PC.... hurrah for getting yelled at by your parents.

Renegade · May 2003

omg weeee matrix is win yay yay!

I had to say it, sorry! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

But in all seriousness, I don't think Neo could see the code because he didn't have an epiphany like in the first movie, in which he had to die before he could gain his powers, but displayed his abilities before-hand when he dodged the bullets. This is sorta the same thing; he's gone into a coma and when he recovers he's going (probably) have a huge repitwar of powers to excersise.

Mullet · May 2003

How could you guys even have any bad comments towards the matrix? Everything was perfect. It all ties in perfectly. The whole story was beyond what I thought it was going to be! "The ending is cheezy"....It was intelligent. Think of it...the one man remaining...the man who was going to attempt to kill Neo (unless he just happens to stalk Neo with a knife for no reason what-so-ever)....and in the end, the only one who is found alive is the one who "attempts" to kill Neo. Then it ends...'cash out da ying-yang'. *The producers, actors, etc want money....and they are going to get it with the cliff-hanger.

BTW: Rage against the machine pwnz j00. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Mullet · May 2003

Oh yeah....I have nothing against the matrix movie, i think it rules...but the part with the Arcitect kinda confused me. Not only was the whole subject confusing, but the dialect he was using within the whole 3 min period of him talking confused me. (Big words dont work good with my head.) And Neo would answer them so quickly! "The supercalifragulous is subliminal messaging through the coding of the matrix which was destroyed 6 times, i pwn j00" (<---- lol just for example) Then neo talks instantly after a minute straight of this advanced dialect by saying, "Bullsh!t". Then the arcitect just talks some more...I just cant really see what hes talkin about when the converstation was goin by so fast, lol. <b>Does anyone agree with me?</b>

Speed_2_Dave · May 2003

why does everyone assume Neo did that? The fact he goes into a "coma" after doing his mumbo-jumbo? How cloes was the ship when Neo took his last stand.. Was it coincidence(causality) or Neo breaking the system? My friends INSIST that it was neo that did it, and since most of them are wrong most of the time, that makes me doubt it even more. However, I see the possiblity that it was Neo, but I also know that the ship was close. REALLY close. This doesn't allow neo to know what the creatures are doing in his "reality" so it would lead more people to belive that neo stopped the machines. Is that why his "EMP" not only stopped the destroyers but himself as well? Meh. Well-done. I'm glad I didn't see too many previews, I'm sad that I saw the agent smith thing ahead of time, I'm sure I would have enjoyed that.
I also didn't see the previews for the next movie as I didn't want to spoil it, maybe that defines it better.
<b>Nice idea with the title: Reloaded</b>

[edit] Mullet-it made perfect sense to me. I'm a CS major/tool/geek[/edit]

Mullet · May 2003

Well then, put what he said in laymen terms. (Dont tell me about the zyon being destroyed 6 times, and how the first matrix was perfect...blah blah...I want some depth. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> )

Red_Wizard · May 2003

The first Matrix he made, and it was a perfect world. Many humans' brains sort of unconciously figured out it wasn't real and 'woke up' from the matrix. (Agent Smith sort of alludes to this in the first movie)
Matrix #2 was also made by the architect, and was based a lot more on human history, but again something was missing.
Then the oracle came along. She figured out that part of what was lacking was the appearence of choice. By setting up the system with some extra coding to support the human psyche, it boasted a 99% accuracy rate. The 1% error is represented by the humans that 'wake up'... and also in slight errors in the code (like the remainder after division... only do that same division millions and billions of times). After a time, all these errors in the code are sort of bundled up and stuck together into an entity within the matrix (The One). Once The One has been created, he needs to be rejoined with the system... basically putting the leftovers back where they came from and resetting the matrix. (To about 1900 or so)
I hope you get all the Zion stuff, 'cause I don't feel like explaining that, too.

Mullet · May 2003

I already knew all of that Red Wizard (thanks tho)....perhaps I <i>do</i> know how far the rabbit hole goes... <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Dr_Shaggy · May 2003

So I was trying really hard to absorb as much as possible from the architect scene (I drink too much and I'm getting dumber) well I ended up not fully grasping the choice that Neo was given. Was it something like:

1) we kill Zion, you and 23 of your closest friends get to rebuild it. People in the matrix don't die (presumably the choice of the previous 6 "ones"), and trinity dies.
2) you can try and save trinity...(heres where i get foggy), machines destroy matrix?/it destroys itself?, what happens to zion in this choice

Other questions I have : Neo wasnt forthcomming with Morpheous after meeting with the Architect, why? Because to explain to Morpheus would mean explaining that the Oracle mislead him, therefore shattering his beliefs and all that junk?

: Is all of Zion wiped out now (minus the "assasin/saboteur")?

: (deduced from red wizard's post) So is Zion like a lure for the One? Let it build up, fish out the One, bust up Zion, reload errors from One back into matrix and let them rebuild Zion?

: uhhh i had more but i forgot (**** beer, you taste so good. Don't drink kids)

<i><b>Edit:</b> Dang Red Wizard nicely done, but the way you mention "the zion thing" makes me feel like i missed something. Help a brother out?</i>

Mullet · May 2003

If someone was explaining that scene in a nutshell, you hit it right on <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'> .

TenSix · May 2003

At least Neo had some longer lines then the 1st one, in which most of his dialouge was in the form of questions. Heh.

I didn't like the sex scene either, they showed Keanu Reeves butt, that I didn't like even more.

Red_Wizard · May 2003

The way I see Zion as working is that it has three functionss to it. Part one is that it serves as a massive garbage dump. All of those 1%-ers who wake up will either die or end up there, making things very convenient for cleanup when the reset occurs. Part two is that it also serves as a method for locating The One and getting him to the source for the final decsion. Part three is that it serves as a form of leverage against The One. If he complies with the reset, then humanity continues on at Zion for another 100 years or so with new people. It's going to be cleaned out either way.

If The One is not reinserted into the matrix, then the error in the code will gradually increase until the code becomes so unstable that the whole thing shuts down, the machines lose a major power supply and all the humans hooked up to is die. The end.

The whole Trinity thing is a flaw in Neo's programing (remember The One is created)... the previous Ones had special programming to ensure that they would choose to comply by making them feel very strongly for humanity. In Neo's case all of this feeling was centered onto Trinity, messing up the whole system. So, while the inclusion of choice allowed the matrix to function, it is also the most likely cause of its downfall. What a mindjob, eh?

Lokus · May 2003

Dr. Shaggy: Zion is still alive, it was the ships that took part in the counter attack that got wiped out.

Dr_Shaggy · May 2003

Thanks Lokus,
So ships dead, Zion still alive (for now) and Matrix isn't destroyed (for now?)... Is the destruction of matrix because Neo wont let his "errors" be "reloaded"? I guess they take Neo back to Zion in that ship they're in. The saboteur wakes up and takes a swing at neo maybe (if they're not connected, cause smith said they were connected now, and they're both in a coma and smith made the black stuff on his skin)

Such a wicked 'Empire Strikes Back' ending

Empty · May 2003

Okay, at the ending where he stopped the sentinels... There is no way it could have been the ship or anything else... You know why? If there was an EMP blast than that ship would have also gone down but it didn't. ALSO if you notice just before their ship does get blown up everyone is looking at the screen and the sentinel is acting wierd. Everyone wonders what the hell this sentinel is doing. But Neo knows that the sentinel is throwing a bomb... Than everyone looks back at Neo like "WTH?" How the hell did he know it was a bomb... HOW?!?! Anyone have any idea which ship was the one that set off the EMP early?

Btw, for anyone that is reading this far and hasn't seen the movie... Neo dies and Agent Smith is Neo's father!

Red_Wizard · May 2003

The way I think that whole linkup thing works is like such: Neo is a creation of the machines... and he has interfaced with the source. (Remember, he had to make a connection through the doorway as it vanished) The way I see it, this left a sort of residual connection in his mind, a connection that was open to all the machines. He could only sense the signals closest to him, as his mind couldn't possibly pick up on the communications aboveground. The stopping of the sentinels was probably no more than a modifed version of your standard packet-swarm DoS attack, overloading the sentinels' minds, but shorting his out from the strain at the same time.

DOOManiac · May 2003

hmm... Very interesting stuff guys! Thanks for turning this thread into what I hoped it could be. :D

The whole neo being programmed by the machines things intrigues me. Is this just your theory Red Wizard, or was it explicitly stated in the movie and I just missed it?

Hawkeye · May 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Anyone have any idea which ship was the one that set off the EMP early?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

We do know one thing. The guy that Agent Smith "brain washed" aka Smith boy was a member of the crew on one of the ships fighting the machines at the interpass on the way to drilling to Zion. Now, they said that an EMP shockwave disabled 5 of the ships, and that it was pretty much a slaughter. Guess who sabotaged the ship? The same guy that survived in the end (because machines knew he was an ally).... Smith boy.

And the ONLY way Neo could have possibly disabled those sentinels is if they were in another matrix, and perhaps in the same fashion that he was able to defy the code in the first one, he could have superpowers in the second matrix as well. Either that, or he was still in the matrix at the time he supposedly "woke up" in the Nebakanezzar.

Also, I have a very hard to answer question.. Why the hell did they need Neo to choose people from Zion to form the new Matrix? Why not just pick some guy off the street? Why did he have to be "The One"? It seems like a whole lot of trouble just to find a guy who can pick a few individuals.

Apocca · May 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hawkeye @ May 16 2003, 02:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Also, I have a very hard to answer question.. Why the hell did they need Neo to choose people from Zion to form the new Matrix? Why not just pick some guy off the street? Why did he have to be "The One"? It seems like a whole lot of trouble just to find a guy who can pick a few individuals.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If The One is not reinserted into the matrix, then the error in the code will gradually increase until the code becomes so unstable that the whole thing shuts down, the machines lose a major power supply and all the humans hooked up to is die. The end.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
and </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>(remember The One is created)... </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I think that answer ur question <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

It should be "If The One is not reloaded into the matrix.... " Then u have the meaning of the title explained aswell.

Speed_2_Dave · May 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Red Wizard @ May 16 2003, 03:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> The way I think that whole linkup thing works is like such: Neo is a creation of the machines... and he has interfaced with the source. (Remember, he had to make a connection through the doorway as it vanished) The way I see it, this left a sort of residual connection in his mind, a connection that was open to all the machines. He could only sense the signals closest to him, as his mind couldn't possibly pick up on the communications aboveground. The stopping of the sentinels was probably no more than a modifed version of your standard packet-swarm DoS attack, overloading the sentinels' minds, but shorting his out from the strain at the same time.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
that would suggest that sentinels don't have their own "brains," right? And something I want to point out, the "man" who Agent smith assimilated is the guy who survived. If he's the guy who set off the EMP early as well, neato-burrito.

Anyone find this part shady? The ghost with the knife, why didn't he succeed in cutting that dude's throat? I would have assumed that **** was toast, unless they were told not to kill <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'>
Hackers, I hate them, watched Morpheus and Neo fight and yelled Hax a few times <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Hawkeye · May 2003

Well, that's just it, the ghosts don't want a bullet in the head, so they go transparent to avoid that. One disadvantage to being "ghost-like" is not being able to touch/move things. So he had his knife around trinity, and before he could do anything, Morpheus shoots a bullet through his head, so he'd go transparent (thus not able to keep his grip or hurt Trinity). Brilliant thinking if you ask me.

Twin 1: "We are getting frustrated."
Twin 2: "Yes, we are."

So why must Neo be reinserted in the matrix? I mean wouldn't it have just been a lot easier to kill him? *Neo walks into trap.. Neo triggers bomb and gets blown to bits.. Machines 1, Humans 0*

Instead, they gave him this choice (which, by the way, they know what he'll choose), and he does the opposite. Why even give him a choice if you know what he'd do?

And also, if the architect is so good at predicting human behavior, why doesn't he see the end of the matrix coming? He should already know that the machines will lose in the end. Hell, I mean they predicted Neo was going to be the One since he was born, so I presume they are pretty damn good at predicting human behavior, right?

These are the things I don't understand. Maybe the architect wasn't who he said he was (but an agent in disguise?).

I heard that they built about an 8 mile circular track for the scenes they shot on the road. Since they couldn't have had a controlled section of highway for filming, this was the only way they could do that. From what I hear, the Wachovski brothers went up to some road construction company and requested this of them. Their response was "Are you nuts? It'll cost you a quarter of a million per an eighth of a mile." The Wachovski brothers' response? "Do it." <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

DOOManiac · May 2003

Indeed, they did have their own highway built for the movie.

And it was worth every penny :D

[edit]
Stupid nub, taking your own thread off topic :X
[/edit]

MedHead · May 2003

I have a nitpick to point out...

EMP Grenades. These things do wonders in the Matrix. But I have a problem. In the final moments of the original movie, the Nebuchadnezzar was EMPed by its own grenade, to get rid of the sentinels. However, in the next film, the ship looks the same - but is still running! Don't EMP fields ruin electronics?! Obviously, at least in the context of the movie, it harms it very much so. That would require the ship to be gutted, and all electronics replaced, correct? Or does the effect wear off?
Either way, if the effect can wear off, then it would mean that the ships that were EMPed in Reloaded really weren't in that much danger, unless the effect doesn't wear off...
I really wanted Reloaded to start off right at the end of the original Matrix. Sigh.

So, if the Keymaker is dead, does that mean that some of the backdoors are no longer accessible? What does that mean for the Oracle?

One idea for Neo's power over the Sentinels: Agent Smith. If Agent Smith received some of Neo's 'freedom' wouldn't that entail that perhaps entail that Neo received something in kind? In both movies, the agents can take over any person who sees Neo, and then begin to use the body to fight Neo. Well, that would mean that they have a sort of omniscience, as well as the power to control things in the Matrix. If that is the case, then Neo, after taking over Smith's body, could have gained that ability. Maybe that's why Smith is no longer connected - Neo took that away from him.

Then again, Neo uses the same hand position to stop the sentinels as he did to stop the bullets...

NightCrawlerz · May 2003

i skipped reading everyoen eslses post to make my own.

I belive that the Matrix that they distroyed was ment to be distroyed. so that once the first one fell the rest woudl accept the REAL matrix and live out their lives.

o yeah and the invisible guys ROCKED. I WAS LIKE YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NO CLIP MODE!!!!!!! hhahahah i loved this movie just incredible. the fight with the millions of Smiths and the fight between the invisible guys were the 2 best of the movie.

Flying-Bastard · May 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MedHead @ May 16 2003, 03:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>EMP Grenades. These things do wonders in the Matrix. But I have a problem. In the final moments of the original movie, the Nebuchadnezzar was EMPed by its own grenade, to get rid of the sentinels. However, in the next film, the ship looks the same - but is still running! Don't EMP fields ruin electronics?! Obviously, at least in the context of the movie, it harms it very much so. That would require the ship to be gutted, and all electronics replaced, correct? Or does the effect wear off?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I do am with you. however, I think the nebucanezzar was "shut down" (aka, no power, electricity down) when they used it. Remember, they had to pull Neo out, and thus because the EMP would've cut the line. However, we dont see Morpheus shutting power, just using the EMP, which again shows something wrong. Bleh, movies...

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>One idea for Neo's power over the Sentinels: Agent Smith. If Agent Smith received some of Neo's 'freedom' wouldn't that entail that perhaps entail that Neo received something in kind? In both movies, the agents can take over any person who sees Neo, and then begin to use the body to fight Neo. Well, that would mean that they have a sort of omniscience, as well as the power to control things in the Matrix. If that is the case, then Neo, after taking over Smith's body, could have gained that ability. Maybe that's why Smith is no longer connected - Neo took that away from him.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Remember that Smith wasnt "free'd" from the Matrix. He is a program, and when programs fail and/or are replaced by other programs, they are flushed and go back to the mainframe. But here, Smith stayed and got new abilities. He isnt fighting for the matrix, but wants revenge on Neo. Thats why he said he is "free" and why he removes his earbud.

The Matrix Reloaded - Plot Discussion

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