Take this kiss upon the brow! And, in parting from you now, Thus much let me avow- You are not wrong, who deem That my days have been a dream; Yet if hope has flown away In a night, or in a day, In a vision, or in none, Is it therefore the less gone? All that we see or seem Is but a dream within a dream.
I stand amid the roar Of a surf-tormented shore, And I hold within my hand Grains of the golden sand- How few! yet how they creep Through my fingers to the deep, While I weep- while I weep! O God! can I not grasp Them with a tighter clasp? O God! can I not save One from the pitiless wave? Is all that we see or seem But a dream within a dream?
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--QuoteBegin--SiLeNcEr-7+May 20 2003, 11:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SiLeNcEr-7 @ May 20 2003, 11:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just saw it again yesterday, Bane is listed as Bane in the credits, don't know what you guys are on but I wan't some. Also, I'm the only one in my town outside of movie personnel that has seen the revolutions trailor (after 6 hours of credits), I AM THE ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111oneoneoneoneone <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> My mistake, Cain was one of the Merovingian's thugs.
Neo wasn't necessarily created by the Matrix, he is a product of it, recall in the first movie how the agents had him but let him go. They weren't sure whether or not he was the One, but they knew he would surface soon.
Bane=Smith end of story, When Smith copies himself over to another avatar, he becomes that avatar, so in Neo's third dream, after he and Trinity do the nasty, Bane gets overwritten, then Smith gets 'downloaded' into Banes head. Bane cutting himself, experiencing pain for the first time is one of them, but in an extended scene in EtM (Enter the Matrix) we see Bane in his room adding another gash to his palm, looks something like this ?‚ (does not equal sign).
The Merovingian. He's basically the trash collector on the program side. He takes in all of the Exiles, The Twins/Cain, Abel/and other vampires and beastlies. Programs that stop working correctly and were headed on their way into the source. Also, on their way out of the Chateau, Morpheus refers to that area as the 'Core Network' which is why they have to travel so far to get an exit. The Oracle talks of him as one of the oldest, Right before his cronies unload at him in the great hall he exclaims "your predecessors had more respect", and after the fight, "Hear me boy, i have survived your predecessors and i will survive you". So no, he was never a 'One' but aparently he has played an integral part in all of their stories.
I like the Neo-Smith-Machine connection, helps clear that bit of fog up for me.
Oh and the Oracle is not the 'mother' of the matrix, the Architect scoffs at Neo when he propses it, watch it again.
Question, how can morpheus and crew think of 'unhooking' EVERYONE from the matrix? where would they go? Some are hopelessly dependent on the matrix, could they survive leaving? Me thinks the matrix will end up crashing, and zion will end up defended, leaving zion to rebuild all of humanity, gg
<!--QuoteBegin--Kharaa_0z+May 21 2003, 01:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kharaa_0z @ May 21 2003, 01:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Bane=Smith end of story, When Smith copies himself over to another avatar, he becomes that avatar, so in Neo's third dream, after he and Trinity do the nasty, Bane gets overwritten, then Smith gets 'downloaded' into Banes head. Bane cutting himself, experiencing pain for the first time is one of them, but in an extended scene in EtM (Enter the Matrix) we see Bane in his room adding another gash to his palm, looks something like this ?‚ (does not equal sign). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> To reinforce this, let me point out something:
When Bane and his partner come diving through the glass, we see that Bane has the data from the oracle already, but he gives it to his partner and tells him to get out of the matrix first. He sacrifices his life to save his shipmates. Doesn't seem like the acts of a Bane who would willingly kill Neo and EMP his own squad of ships...
Just to clear this up... who exactly is arguing what about the Bane/Smith thing? Its obvious that he overwrote him inside the matrix, then escaped, creating a person with Smith's mind in the real world. Whats there to argue?
Sorry for resurrecting the thread, but as Reloaded was only released today in multiple countries, I assume it would, anyway. Great discussion, everyone.
Here are some thoughts of mine:
<b>The Merovingian (aka 'Frenchy'):</b>
Maybe the most mystical character of the movie, plus, a real jerk.
I for mine take Persephones comment about him and Neo being 'alike' quite seriously, here's why: The Merovingian reminded me of Danton, one of the leaders of the French revolution who then fell for the joys of feudal living himself and shared a similiarily fatalistic point of view. Who says the machines are truly 'one mind'? The Second Renaissance seems to state differently. If we do now assume that there is plurality amongst the programs, it's only logical that some would sooner or later dissent. Thus, it could be that Frenchy is a former leader of a revolution within the machines, who then developed a bigger affinity to his 'human' aspects, namely, his impulses, and succumbed in decadence. The fact that he survived multiple reloads indicates that he commands over big enough powers not to fall victim to both machines and a (potentially enraged) One during the process, after all. It'll be interesting to see how his role is extended in Revolutions.
<b>The Smith-dilemma:</b>
We seem to have reached consensus that Smith has become a virus after the confrontation with Neo.
This leads to some rather interesting conclusions: The Architect told Neo that he's product of a faulty algorithm, which could potentially destroy the Matrix, but also put it back into stability. Now, couldn't it be that the creation of a massively reproducing virus such as Smith <i>is</i> the destructive force threatening the Matrix? As such a virus is outside the boundaries of the 'programming language' of the machines (as are Neos powers), they can not fight this virus. Only a complete reboot, the removal of all active software (however one wants to apply that term) with all its consequences, could save the construct from being consumed by the virus. Thus, the One would be direct origin and solution of the fatal instability within the Matrix.
It does also mean that Smith is less of an adversary and more of a 'force of nature' destroying anything in its way - a force of nature that has managed the jump into the (assumed, hopeful) real world:
<b>Bane:</b>
We do not know how far the duplicated Smiths communicate, but the scene in the backdoor passage indicates at least a purposeful coordination. Thus, the Smith, or Smith-derivate within Banes brain would serve as 'agent' of the virus in the real world, with the same objective: Destroy and replicate. On both sides.
<b>The Connection between Neo and Smith:</b>
Is doubtlessly existant - see the 'feeling' of Neo during the meeting at which the Osiris' informatons are distributed, or the 'meta-Matrix' abilities of both. It remains to be seen how far this connection goes - possible that Smith tries to 'cut' this bond (by cutting Neo) to remove the only true adversary he has to fear. I do honestly not believe in any benevolent action by Smith, such as trying to keep Neo alive.
<b>The senate:</b>
Many suggested that the counselor could be connected to the agents because he refers to Neo as "human" - ever got the idea that he is instead <i>remembering</i> something he was told, a long time ago? In my opinion, this counselor is the previous One, trying to hint Neo at what is going to happen ("no control"). The senate would thus be the initial population of Zion. See also the counselors reactions on Neos question why only old people are members.
<b>Neos creation:</b>
While I agree that it would be possible to genetically modify the children on the fields, I for mine understood the Architects elaborations as the Matrix trying to fit human nature, which does not hint at big use of modifications (repeat: "Suspension of Disbelief"). To me, the 1% is a natural 'fall out' rate of people the Matrix can not compensate for, with the One being a very special 'accident' the machines <i>can not forsee</i> (repeat: "Suspension of Disbelief"). This anomaly then leads inevitably to a confrontation with the guradians in the Matrix, resulting in the Smith-dilemma.
I doubt that the machines have as big control over the Matrix as the Architect claims - otherwise, they could just supress any kind of uprising. Also note that all people taken over by agents are either innocent bystanders on known Zionist locations, or react shocked on the sight of one of the rebels displaying their power, thus making their location traceable to the machines. See the Matrix comic section on www.thematrix.com for further reference.
Good points on everything, but I have to differ with you on Neo's creation point. The 1% statistic isn't a constant in the matrix, it was 1% only this time around. I gather this because of a few things the Architect says, mainly that the first matrix was a complete disaster meaning almost all the people rejected it and that Neo is the remainder of the unbalanced equation, meaning he is the last.
As I stated earlier I'm pretty sure each Reload of the Matrix reduces the amount of choice people hooked into it have and that Neo and the gang were the last of the free if you will. That's undoubtedly why Neo choose to save Trinity instead of rebuild Zion because on some level he knew it would be the end of freedom in the Matrix.
Also keep in mind the freedom fighters are hackers and they take methods to conceal themselves from the machines when inside the Matrix, but in most ways the machines are all powerful in the Matrix that's why pretty much everyone except Neo has to run from Agents.
I agree on the '1%' issue (just using the number as a name for the Zionists here), but disagree on the issue of Neo rescuing Trinity for any 'rational' (if even sub-concious) reason.
We see a very strong differentiation into cold ratio, as posed by the machines, and impulisive emotion, as shown by the humans, in this movie. Take the dance/sex scene, for example. Thematically, this is harmonizing with the 'are we in control?' motif as both aspects of the human being are generally considered as internal combatants over the control of the human psyche.
Anyway, the choice the Architect poses is just this: Either, Neo follows the rational alternative of saving a few, or he follows his emotions, and saves Trinity to leave all to an eventual death. Thus, the descision is not a subconcious opt-out against a perfect Matrix, but, and now we're seeing a nice paradoxon, a free descision based on impulsiviness, which is philosophically considered the source of the loss of freedom.
[edit]It's true that the Zionists have to conceal themselves, but they can operate largely in the open as long as they are not spotted by other humans, which does in my opinion hint at the machines not surveilling the whole Matrix at any given moment, but only running 'search programs' when an immediate threat is becoming obvious, for example by some 'sleeper' getting into a mental shoch by watching people jump-dodge bullets faster than the human eye.[/edit]
I'm still a bit confused on the current status of Zion. Neo chose to save Trinity, instead of Zion. Thus Zion is going to be destroyed, correct? If I recall it was either Morpheus or Neo at the end of the movie saying they had so many hours (cant remember) before the machines reached Zion. So basically despite all the BS the Architect said, there is still a chance to save Zion.
Yes, there is a theoretical chance (which Neo&co will of course pursue), but let's keep in mind that there'll be 250.000 squiddies. Now count the number necessary to grill Morpheus ship...
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+May 22 2003, 02:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ May 22 2003, 02:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I agree on the '1%' issue (just using the number as a name for the Zionists here), but disagree on the issue of Neo rescuing Trinity for any 'rational' (if even sub-concious) reason.
We see a very strong differentiation into cold ratio, as posed by the machines, and impulisive emotion, as shown by the humans, in this movie. Take the dance/sex scene, for example. Thematically, this is harmonizing with the 'are we in control?' motif as both aspects of the human being are generally considered as internal combatants over the control of the human psyche.
Anyway, the choice the Architect poses is just this: Either, Neo follows the rational alternative of saving a few, or he follows his emotions, and saves Trinity to leave all to an eventual death. Thus, the descision is not a subconcious opt-out against a perfect Matrix, but, and now we're seeing a nice paradoxon, a free descision based on impulsiviness, which is philosophically considered the source of the loss of freedom. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh for sure his decision was irrational and impulsive but I still say he is the One. This hasn't been brought up and I'll probably be reaching but I'm going to propose my theory as to why the prophecy still holds.
Time was a constant motif in Reloaded, how long the sentinels had to dig, how long the door stays open, how long the war went on, etc. One of the main points I'm going to bring up is that the Oracle told Neo he was seeing the world without time, he immediately said what he already knew that he had to choose if Trinity lived or died, the oracle replied "No. You've already made that choice now you have to understand it." This in conjunction with the Architect scene leads me to believe that Neo had already made the decision not to rebuild Zion beforehand. If you take the idea of the prophecy and extend beyond the mere 100 years this Matrix has been in existence and stretch it over say the time before the war between man and machine started to the present it can easily be that Neo is "the One" who rose above all others and even broke the ultimate system of control by not repeating the cycle his "predecessors” had.
Also I think the idea of fate will play a big role in Revolutions because it's been a theme in each movie and people will be divided into groups who either believe Neo is still the One with an ultimate reason behind his actions or he simply acted on his Love for Trinity alone and the prophecy was a system of control.
<!--QuoteBegin--OttoDestruct+May 22 2003, 02:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (OttoDestruct @ May 22 2003, 02:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm still a bit confused on the current status of Zion. Neo chose to save Trinity, instead of Zion. Thus Zion is going to be destroyed, correct? If I recall it was either Morpheus or Neo at the end of the movie saying they had so many hours (cant remember) before the machines reached Zion. So basically despite all the BS the Architect said, there is still a chance to save Zion. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <paraphrase>
Ah, yes, hope. It is simultaneously the greatest strength and the greatest weakness of humans.
I think Neo HAD to be the One of this reload, because he was given access to the source. Not just anyone is given that.
I'm just throwing this out there. I bet in the last episode, Neo uses his new powers to kill all of the machine army, but, in turn, kills himself because of the shock of it.
That's my guess. If it ends up happening, let me be hailed as awesome. If not, nobody will remember it anyway. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
If the Architect lied, then he'd be saying anything just to get Neo to go through that door and save Trinity. He's able to predict behavior so well, I'd think he said what he said to lure him that direction. But then, it doesn't make sense to say those things unless the real "source" was in the other door (so he convinced him to choose the door on the opposite side).
<!--QuoteBegin--Sirus+May 19 2003, 07:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sirus @ May 19 2003, 07:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> First, I want to start off by bringing up that in many ways "The Matrix" is an alagory to the Bible. The first matrix being Eden, then the downfall of man being the second matrix and the more realistic things that we know today. Neo being a character depicting many things like Jesus, being a saviour and dying and coming back to life. Trinity, representing the unity of God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. The Nebacanezzar (spelling...), being a character from the Bible. So, I'd just like to introduce this, making the point that Reloaded and Revolutions probably follows suit and includes many stories from the Bible, so possibly we can make some other connections, and possibly it might help explain somethings.
I'd like to note, that the scene with the Architect could <i>definetly</i> be considered similar to the temptation of Jesus Christ. This could be construed as the Architect lying to Neo, trying to influence him to make the wrong decision. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think it's a definite possibility.
Did anyone notice that the doors in Zion were all painted blood-red? I guess that's another biblical allusion, where the people put the lamb blood on their doors to drive away the angel of death, or whatever it was.
Uh no that would be the Jewish holiday of Passover, they painted the door because Moses brought on the final plague where it killed the first born child, but you were "Passed over" if you did that. Needless to say Pharoh's child died.
<!--QuoteBegin--Windelkron+May 24 2003, 12:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Windelkron @ May 24 2003, 12:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Did anyone notice that the doors in Zion were all painted blood-red? I guess that's another biblical allusion, where the people put the lamb blood on their doors to drive away the angel of death, or whatever it was. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> correct.
<!--QuoteBegin--OttoDestruct+May 24 2003, 11:46 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (OttoDestruct @ May 24 2003, 11:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Uh no that would be the Jewish holiday of Passover, they painted the door because Moses brought on the final plague where it killed the first born child, but you were "Passed over" if you did that. Needless to say Pharoh's child died. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> He is still right. It was the angel of death who killed all children living in homes that didn't have the blood of a lamb on their doorposts.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also I think the idea of fate will play a big role in Revolutions because it's been a theme in each movie and people will be divided into groups who either believe Neo is still the One with an ultimate reason behind his actions or he simply acted on his Love for Trinity alone and the prophecy was a system of control.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes exactly. Well put. Mark my words, the downfall of the matrix will be due to the machines assuming they are using a system of control on Neo, when in fact it was his fate to do something else (hence what they expected of him didn't happen and machines lose for some reason).
The Prophecy would always leave The One choosing the door to his right - merging with the source, picking 23 people (23 councillors in Zion too, I think) and saving mankind. Only to have that cycle repeat again and the matrix still in place. So the oracle actually misled The One.
But Neo did something machines didn't expect - he fell in love and took that door which led him to save Trinity. The Architect told him this would destroy all mankind only because it MIGHT destroy all of The Matrix. This way the matrix doesn't start all over again. No prophecies apply now - anything can happen...
<b>OK peeps - transcript of The Architect Scene for those who want clarification:</b>
THE ARCHITECT Hello, NEO.
NEO Who are you?
ARCHITECT I am THE ARCHITECT. I created the matrix. I've been waiting for you. You have many questions, and although the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human. Ergo, some of my answers you will understand, and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize it is also irrelevant.
NEO Why am I here?
THE ARCHITECT Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden to sedulously avoid it, it is not unexpected, and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you, inexorably, here.
NEO You haven't answered my question.
THE ARCHITECT Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others.
The MONITORS show the responses of the other 'ONES': "Others?" "What others?" "How many?" "Answer me!"
THE ARCHITECT The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version.
Again, the MONITORS show the responses of the other ONES: "Five versions?" "Three?" "I've been lied to." "This is ****!"
NEO There are only two possible explanations: either no one told me, or no one knows.
THE ARCHITECT Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly's systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.
OTHER ONES: "You can't control me!" "**** you!" "I'm going to kill you!" "You can't make me do anything!"
NEO Choice. The problem is choice.
CUT TO: Trinity fighting an agent. And then back.
THE ARCHITECT The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is as apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being, thus I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.
NEO The Oracle.
THE ARCHITECT Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo, those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probability of disaster.
NEO This is about Zion.
THE ARCHITECT You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. Its every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.
NEO Bullsh.
OTHER ONES: "Bullsh!"
THE ARCHITECT Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But, rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.
CUT TO: Trinity still fighting the agent. And back.
THE ARCHITECT The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.
NEO You won't let it happen, you can't. You need human beings to survive.
THE ARCHITECT There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. However, the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the responsibility for the death of every human being in this world.
THE ARCHITECT presses a button on a pen that he is holding, and images of people from all over the matrix appear on the monitors
THE ARCHITECT It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the one. While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific. Vis-a-vis, love.
IMAGES of TRINITY fighting the agent from Neo’s dream appear on the monitors.
NEO Trinity.
THE ARCHITECT Apropos, she entered the matrix to save your life at the cost of her own.
NEO No!
THE ARCHITECT Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning, and end. There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to the left leads back to the matrix, to her, and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the problem is choice. But we already know what you're going to do, don't we?
Already I can see the chain reaction; the chemical precursors that signal the onset of emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic, and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple, and obvious truth: she is going to die, and there is nothing that you can do to stop it.
NEO walks to the door on his left.
THE ARCHITECT (turning in his chair) Humph. Hope: it is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness.
NEO If I were you, I would hope that we don't meet again.
You could always tape record it <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
One thing I want to raise regarding Neo's abilities in the finale, why does everyone seem to find them so unbelievable? He stops himself walking away and voices that he "feels a connection with them [the sentinels]"- and then raises his hand, and well and truly f**ks the sentinels over. I thought that perhaps he's still "linked" to the Matrix- Agent Smith anyone? They share a definite bond, having killed each other at least once. With a "link" to the Matrix itself, the sentinels would do or at least to react to what he instructed, wouldn't they? The brain is just a series of electrical impulses so human/machine communication over long distances isn't all that unbelievable, come to think of it...
As for the Matrix within a Matrix, yes, I hope that Reeves was correctly quoted and that such a pathetic twist doesn't occur. Mind you, Zion's a bit of a sandbox anyway... due to the nurturing of "The One" system of "government", Zion has been efficiently destroyed many a time and the direct influence of "The One" (multiple...) implies a Matrix-esque control over everything there anyway, despite it actually being reality...
Simply because, link to the matrix or not, it seems almost impossible to do. Since film 1 we have trained ourselves to believe that Neo can manipulate reality in a computer program by hacking it in some way, yet here he does so outside of it IN THE REAL WORLD. Like OMG!!!!!!!1111 etc.
Comments
Here's your proof: when he's lying in wait with the knife cutting himself. What does he say to Neo as he leaves?
<b>"<i>We</i>'ll be seeing you."</b>
Edgar Allan Poe
Take this kiss upon the brow!
And, in parting from you now,
Thus much let me avow-
You are not wrong, who deem
That my days have been a dream;
Yet if hope has flown away
In a night, or in a day,
In a vision, or in none,
Is it therefore the less gone?
All that we see or seem
Is but a dream within a dream.
I stand amid the roar
Of a surf-tormented shore,
And I hold within my hand
Grains of the golden sand-
How few! yet how they creep
Through my fingers to the deep,
While I weep- while I weep!
O God! can I not grasp
Them with a tighter clasp?
O God! can I not save
One from the pitiless wave?
Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?
My mistake, Cain was one of the Merovingian's thugs.
Bane=Smith end of story, When Smith copies himself over to another avatar, he becomes that avatar, so in Neo's third dream, after he and Trinity do the nasty, Bane gets overwritten, then Smith gets 'downloaded' into Banes head.
Bane cutting himself, experiencing pain for the first time is one of them, but in an extended scene in EtM (Enter the Matrix) we see Bane in his room adding another gash to his palm, looks something like this ?‚ (does not equal sign).
The Merovingian. He's basically the trash collector on the program side. He takes in all of the Exiles, The Twins/Cain, Abel/and other vampires and beastlies. Programs that stop working correctly and were headed on their way into the source. Also, on their way out of the Chateau, Morpheus refers to that area as the 'Core Network' which is why they have to travel so far to get an exit.
The Oracle talks of him as one of the oldest, Right before his cronies unload at him in the great hall he exclaims "your predecessors had more respect", and after the fight, "Hear me boy, i have survived your predecessors and i will survive you". So no, he was never a 'One' but aparently he has played an integral part in all of their stories.
I like the Neo-Smith-Machine connection, helps clear that bit of fog up for me.
Oh and the Oracle is not the 'mother' of the matrix, the Architect scoffs at Neo when he propses it, watch it again.
Question, how can morpheus and crew think of 'unhooking' EVERYONE from the matrix? where would they go? Some are hopelessly dependent on the matrix, could they survive leaving?
Me thinks the matrix will end up crashing, and zion will end up defended, leaving zion to rebuild all of humanity, gg
Bane cutting himself, experiencing pain for the first time is one of them, but in an extended scene in EtM (Enter the Matrix) we see Bane in his room adding another gash to his palm, looks something like this ?‚ (does not equal sign). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
To reinforce this, let me point out something:
When Bane and his partner come diving through the glass, we see that Bane has the data from the oracle already, but he gives it to his partner and tells him to get out of the matrix first. He sacrifices his life to save his shipmates. Doesn't seem like the acts of a Bane who would willingly kill Neo and EMP his own squad of ships...
Here are some thoughts of mine:
<b>The Merovingian (aka 'Frenchy'):</b>
Maybe the most mystical character of the movie, plus, a real jerk.
I for mine take Persephones comment about him and Neo being 'alike' quite seriously, here's why: The Merovingian reminded me of Danton, one of the leaders of the French revolution who then fell for the joys of feudal living himself and shared a similiarily fatalistic point of view.
Who says the machines are truly 'one mind'? The Second Renaissance seems to state differently.
If we do now assume that there is plurality amongst the programs, it's only logical that some would sooner or later dissent. Thus, it could be that Frenchy is a former leader of a revolution within the machines, who then developed a bigger affinity to his 'human' aspects, namely, his impulses, and succumbed in decadence.
The fact that he survived multiple reloads indicates that he commands over big enough powers not to fall victim to both machines and a (potentially enraged) One during the process, after all.
It'll be interesting to see how his role is extended in Revolutions.
<b>The Smith-dilemma:</b>
We seem to have reached consensus that Smith has become a virus after the confrontation with Neo.
This leads to some rather interesting conclusions: The Architect told Neo that he's product of a faulty algorithm, which could potentially destroy the Matrix, but also put it back into stability.
Now, couldn't it be that the creation of a massively reproducing virus such as Smith <i>is</i> the destructive force threatening the Matrix? As such a virus is outside the boundaries of the 'programming language' of the machines (as are Neos powers), they can not fight this virus. Only a complete reboot, the removal of all active software (however one wants to apply that term) with all its consequences, could save the construct from being consumed by the virus. Thus, the One would be direct origin and solution of the fatal instability within the Matrix.
It does also mean that Smith is less of an adversary and more of a 'force of nature' destroying anything in its way - a force of nature that has managed the jump into the (assumed, hopeful) real world:
<b>Bane:</b>
We do not know how far the duplicated Smiths communicate, but the scene in the backdoor passage indicates at least a purposeful coordination. Thus, the Smith, or Smith-derivate within Banes brain would serve as 'agent' of the virus in the real world, with the same objective: Destroy and replicate. On both sides.
<b>The Connection between Neo and Smith:</b>
Is doubtlessly existant - see the 'feeling' of Neo during the meeting at which the Osiris' informatons are distributed, or the 'meta-Matrix' abilities of both. It remains to be seen how far this connection goes - possible that Smith tries to 'cut' this bond (by cutting Neo) to remove the only true adversary he has to fear. I do honestly not believe in any benevolent action by Smith, such as trying to keep Neo alive.
<b>The senate:</b>
Many suggested that the counselor could be connected to the agents because he refers to Neo as "human" - ever got the idea that he is instead <i>remembering</i> something he was told, a long time ago? In my opinion, this counselor is the previous One, trying to hint Neo at what is going to happen ("no control"). The senate would thus be the initial population of Zion. See also the counselors reactions on Neos question why only old people are members.
<b>Neos creation:</b>
While I agree that it would be possible to genetically modify the children on the fields, I for mine understood the Architects elaborations as the Matrix trying to fit human nature, which does not hint at big use of modifications (repeat: "Suspension of Disbelief"). To me, the 1% is a natural 'fall out' rate of people the Matrix can not compensate for, with the One being a very special 'accident' the machines <i>can not forsee</i> (repeat: "Suspension of Disbelief").
This anomaly then leads inevitably to a confrontation with the guradians in the Matrix, resulting in the Smith-dilemma.
I doubt that the machines have as big control over the Matrix as the Architect claims - otherwise, they could just supress any kind of uprising. Also note that all people taken over by agents are either innocent bystanders on known Zionist locations, or react shocked on the sight of one of the rebels displaying their power, thus making their location traceable to the machines. See the Matrix comic section on www.thematrix.com for further reference.
As I stated earlier I'm pretty sure each Reload of the Matrix reduces the amount of choice people hooked into it have and that Neo and the gang were the last of the free if you will. That's undoubtedly why Neo choose to save Trinity instead of rebuild Zion because on some level he knew it would be the end of freedom in the Matrix.
Also keep in mind the freedom fighters are hackers and they take methods to conceal themselves from the machines when inside the Matrix, but in most ways the machines are all powerful in the Matrix that's why pretty much everyone except Neo has to run from Agents.
We see a very strong differentiation into cold ratio, as posed by the machines, and impulisive emotion, as shown by the humans, in this movie. Take the dance/sex scene, for example. Thematically, this is harmonizing with the 'are we in control?' motif as both aspects of the human being are generally considered as internal combatants over the control of the human psyche.
Anyway, the choice the Architect poses is just this: Either, Neo follows the rational alternative of saving a few, or he follows his emotions, and saves Trinity to leave all to an eventual death. Thus, the descision is not a subconcious opt-out against a perfect Matrix, but, and now we're seeing a nice paradoxon, a free descision based on impulsiviness, which is philosophically considered the source of the loss of freedom.
[edit]It's true that the Zionists have to conceal themselves, but they can operate largely in the open as long as they are not spotted by other humans, which does in my opinion hint at the machines not surveilling the whole Matrix at any given moment, but only running 'search programs' when an immediate threat is becoming obvious, for example by some 'sleeper' getting into a mental shoch by watching people jump-dodge bullets faster than the human eye.[/edit]
Zion is 'realistically' dead meat.
We see a very strong differentiation into cold ratio, as posed by the machines, and impulisive emotion, as shown by the humans, in this movie. Take the dance/sex scene, for example. Thematically, this is harmonizing with the 'are we in control?' motif as both aspects of the human being are generally considered as internal combatants over the control of the human psyche.
Anyway, the choice the Architect poses is just this: Either, Neo follows the rational alternative of saving a few, or he follows his emotions, and saves Trinity to leave all to an eventual death. Thus, the descision is not a subconcious opt-out against a perfect Matrix, but, and now we're seeing a nice paradoxon, a free descision based on impulsiviness, which is philosophically considered the source of the loss of freedom. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh for sure his decision was irrational and impulsive but I still say he is the One. This hasn't been brought up and I'll probably be reaching but I'm going to propose my theory as to why the prophecy still holds.
Time was a constant motif in Reloaded, how long the sentinels had to dig, how long the door stays open, how long the war went on, etc. One of the main points I'm going to bring up is that the Oracle told Neo he was seeing the world without time, he immediately said what he already knew that he had to choose if Trinity lived or died, the oracle replied "No. You've already made that choice now you have to understand it." This in conjunction with the Architect scene leads me to believe that Neo had already made the decision not to rebuild Zion beforehand. If you take the idea of the prophecy and extend beyond the mere 100 years this Matrix has been in existence and stretch it over say the time before the war between man and machine started to the present it can easily be that Neo is "the One" who rose above all others and even broke the ultimate system of control by not repeating the cycle his "predecessors” had.
Also I think the idea of fate will play a big role in Revolutions because it's been a theme in each movie and people will be divided into groups who either believe Neo is still the One with an ultimate reason behind his actions or he simply acted on his Love for Trinity alone and the prophecy was a system of control.
I for one am still a believer : )
<paraphrase>
Ah, yes, hope. It is simultaneously the greatest strength and the greatest weakness of humans.
I'm just throwing this out there. I bet in the last episode, Neo uses his new powers to kill all of the machine army, but, in turn, kills himself because of the shock of it.
That's my guess. If it ends up happening, let me be hailed as awesome. If not, nobody will remember it anyway. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The first matrix being Eden, then the downfall of man being the second matrix and the more realistic things that we know today. Neo being a character depicting many things like Jesus, being a saviour and dying and coming back to life. Trinity, representing the unity of God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. The Nebacanezzar (spelling...), being a character from the Bible. So, I'd just like to introduce this, making the point that Reloaded and Revolutions probably follows suit and includes many stories from the Bible, so possibly we can make some other connections, and possibly it might help explain somethings.
I'd like to note, that the scene with the Architect could <i>definetly</i> be considered similar to the temptation of Jesus Christ. This could be construed as the Architect lying to Neo, trying to influence him to make the wrong decision. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it's a definite possibility.
correct.
He is still right. It was the angel of death who killed all children living in homes that didn't have the blood of a lamb on their doorposts.
Yes exactly. Well put. Mark my words, the downfall of the matrix will be due to the machines assuming they are using a system of control on Neo, when in fact it was his fate to do something else (hence what they expected of him didn't happen and machines lose for some reason).
But Neo did something machines didn't expect - he fell in love and took that door which led him to save Trinity. The Architect told him this would destroy all mankind only because it MIGHT destroy all of The Matrix. This way the matrix doesn't start all over again. No prophecies apply now - anything can happen...
THE ARCHITECT
Hello, NEO.
NEO
Who are you?
ARCHITECT
I am THE ARCHITECT. I created the matrix. I've been waiting for you. You have many questions, and although the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human. Ergo, some of my answers you will understand, and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize
it is also irrelevant.
NEO
Why am I here?
THE ARCHITECT
Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision.
While it remains a burden to sedulously avoid it, it is not unexpected, and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you, inexorably, here.
NEO
You haven't answered my question.
THE ARCHITECT
Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others.
The MONITORS show the responses of the other 'ONES': "Others?" "What others?" "How many?" "Answer me!"
THE ARCHITECT
The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version.
Again, the MONITORS show the responses of the other ONES: "Five versions?" "Three?" "I've been lied to." "This is ****!"
NEO
There are only two possible explanations: either no one told me, or no one knows.
THE ARCHITECT
Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly's systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.
OTHER ONES: "You can't control me!" "**** you!" "I'm going to kill you!" "You can't make me do anything!"
NEO
Choice. The problem is choice.
CUT TO: Trinity fighting an agent. And then back.
THE ARCHITECT
The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is as apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being, thus I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature.
However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche.
If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.
NEO
The Oracle.
THE ARCHITECT
Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo, those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probability of disaster.
NEO
This is about Zion.
THE ARCHITECT
You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. Its every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.
NEO
Bullsh.
OTHER ONES: "Bullsh!"
THE ARCHITECT
Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But, rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.
CUT TO: Trinity still fighting the agent. And back.
THE ARCHITECT
The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.
NEO
You won't let it happen, you can't. You need human beings to survive.
THE ARCHITECT
There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. However, the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the responsibility for the death of every human being in this world.
THE ARCHITECT presses a button on a pen that he is holding, and images of people from all over the matrix appear on the monitors
THE ARCHITECT
It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the one. While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more
specific. Vis-a-vis, love.
IMAGES of TRINITY fighting the agent from Neo’s dream appear on the monitors.
NEO
Trinity.
THE ARCHITECT
Apropos, she entered the matrix to save your life at the cost of her own.
NEO
No!
THE ARCHITECT
Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning, and end. There are two doors.
The door to your right leads to the source, and the salvation of Zion.
The door to the left leads back to the matrix, to her, and to the end of your species.
As you adequately put, the problem is choice. But we already know what you're going to do, don't we?
Already I can see the chain reaction; the chemical precursors that signal the onset of emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic, and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple, and obvious truth: she is going to die, and there is nothing that you can do to stop it.
NEO walks to the door on his left.
THE ARCHITECT (turning in his chair)
Humph. Hope: it is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness.
NEO
If I were you, I would hope that we don't meet again.
THE ARCHITECT
We won't.
One thing I want to raise regarding Neo's abilities in the finale, why does everyone seem to find them so unbelievable? He stops himself walking away and voices that he "feels a connection with them [the sentinels]"- and then raises his hand, and well and truly f**ks the sentinels over.
I thought that perhaps he's still "linked" to the Matrix- Agent Smith anyone? They share a definite bond, having killed each other at least once. With a "link" to the Matrix itself, the sentinels would do or at least to react to what he instructed, wouldn't they? The brain is just a series of electrical impulses so human/machine communication over long distances isn't all that unbelievable, come to think of it...
As for the Matrix within a Matrix, yes, I hope that Reeves was correctly quoted and that such a pathetic twist doesn't occur. Mind you, Zion's a bit of a sandbox anyway... due to the nurturing of "The One" system of "government", Zion has been efficiently destroyed many a time and the direct influence of "The One" (multiple...) implies a Matrix-esque control over everything there anyway, despite it actually being reality...