Mid-game Balance
Grendel
All that is fear... Join Date: 2002-07-19 Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
All that is fear... Join Date: 2002-07-19 Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<div class="IPBDescription">A discussion of the role of the Fade</div> [Edit]I would like to apologise for any embarrasment that I may have inadvertently caused Buggeh by describing him as a halfway decent fade. <3[/Edit]
Whilst I discount much of what Savant says as well written, but incorrect, <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=90300&view=findpost&p=1420757' target='_blank'>this post</a> is rather difficult to refute.
To summarise what he says -
A fade's utility is improportionate to the user's skill. At low levels of skill, the fade is a short lived waste of resources. In the hands of Mustang, it's a flying threshing machine. Consequently I believe that the skill requirements for the Fade are the fulcrum upon which the entire balance of NS rests.
My reasoning is as follows:
The entire kharaa game after 3-4 minutes of play (rough time to fades in 3.0 Final) appears to be dependant on the Fade. When commenting on clan matches, the primary aspect that people discuss is:
> When did fades appear?
> How many fades were used?
> How were fades killed or how did they avoid getting killed?
The entire analysis of matchplay is Fade orientated. Fade's usually account for a 30% to 70% share of all kills in games. To me, this suggests that the middle of the game is fade orientated. If I seem to be labouring this point, it's to try and reduce the chance that someone will derail the thread by arguing the toss.
<b>So, What's my point here?</b>
Here I depict the current skill curve of Fades (which is based on observation, please feel free to disagree) with a suggested skill curve, which I feel would be more conducive to both general enjoyment and game balance.
<img src='http://img172.exs.cx/img172/7586/fade8ah.png' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
I'm not suggesting for an instant that the skill aspect of optimum Fade usage should be attenuated and if you can read a graph, you'll already know this. Excellent fades, just like excellent skulks, Lerks and marines should significantly improve their team's chances of winning, in concert with tactics, strategy and communication. The suggested skill curve, if you examine it, doesn't change this dynamic. Top players would still retain the same impact on gameplay. The main difference is that average to good players would have an impact that would better reflect the resources they risk when they play.
What I <i>am</i> suggesting is that if the current skill curve of the fade was altered, it would both promote more enjoyable public play and ensure that the competitive community gets what it needs, i.e. a steady supply of decent fades. If player classes are frustrating to play (and getting spat out by both teams and insulted is not fun), then people will not have the incentive to play. This lack of incentive goes a fair way to explaining why you find relatively few highly skilled fades. Without a decent fade or two, you don't have a clan. Period. This kind of gameplay dynamic is not conducive to the long term success of a game in either public or clan play.
Improving the enjoyability of the gameplay for players (thus increasing the incentives to play in the Fade role), is not the only reason why this would be a beneficial move. There's also the issue of balance. The more extreme the skill curve for the Fade, the more difficult it becomes to balance the game, since the impact of the game element in question becomes too variable to factor in.
One way of compensating for this is to provide the opposite team with a comparative dynamic, so then at least the demands on the teams would have some semblance of symmetry. One could argue that the Commander fits a similar role, but the Commander is always dependent on his team to provide him with the resources in order to demonstrate such skill. Even then, by placing a requirement on one player to be exceptional at the game for a team to function, not only do you create an extremely stressful environment for that player (perhaps regular Commanders will back me up on this assertion), but you also <b>increase</b> the instability in the game balance.
Sensory chambers have caused a similar problem. Commanders already had to drop structures, make tactical decisions, research upgrades and deploy meds & ammo. The need for them now to be scanning constantly all the time simply puts an unreasonable demand for micromanagement on all but the very best of them. <b>They already had their hands full</b>. (Why marines weren't given something like 5 res scanners (a la combat mode) as a new item I'm not sure, but that's a tangent I won't explore further here.) By further jacking up the skill requirement for Commanders, you are encouraging a skill curve even more similar to the Fade, which exacerbates all the problems I've detailed above.
At this point, I'm sure many of you are saying something along the lines of <i>"WTH, he's suggesting we make fades MORE deadly? WTH is he smoking?"</i> Well, board rules prevent me from answering the second question, but I can put the first question into perspective.
Yes, I <b>am</b> suggesting that we improve the accessibilty of the fade for competent to good players. Not too much, because then everyone would Fade and the hives would never get built.
Naturally, the Frontiersmen would equally require a buff. Making Catpacks and Hand Grenades free to research or available from the start would be one way. Giving them an expensive, single shot weapon that drained adrenaline would be another (careful use would allow you to pick Lerks or Fades off, or stop gorges from healing hives, blah blah blah, I'm sure you can think it through). There are loads of ways to buff marines. After all, the development team have found a way to do it in every other version of NS. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
So, to restate it in a nutshell:
<b>The unusually high skills required to take the role of Fade are harmful to both the popularity of the game and to gameplay balance. Discuss. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> </b>
Postscript: (Please forgive the rather questionable grammar and any spelling mistakes in this post, I am doing it surreptitiously whilst at work. I will attempt to clean it up later as I spot errors).
Whilst I discount much of what Savant says as well written, but incorrect, <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=90300&view=findpost&p=1420757' target='_blank'>this post</a> is rather difficult to refute.
To summarise what he says -
A fade's utility is improportionate to the user's skill. At low levels of skill, the fade is a short lived waste of resources. In the hands of Mustang, it's a flying threshing machine. Consequently I believe that the skill requirements for the Fade are the fulcrum upon which the entire balance of NS rests.
My reasoning is as follows:
The entire kharaa game after 3-4 minutes of play (rough time to fades in 3.0 Final) appears to be dependant on the Fade. When commenting on clan matches, the primary aspect that people discuss is:
> When did fades appear?
> How many fades were used?
> How were fades killed or how did they avoid getting killed?
The entire analysis of matchplay is Fade orientated. Fade's usually account for a 30% to 70% share of all kills in games. To me, this suggests that the middle of the game is fade orientated. If I seem to be labouring this point, it's to try and reduce the chance that someone will derail the thread by arguing the toss.
<b>So, What's my point here?</b>
Here I depict the current skill curve of Fades (which is based on observation, please feel free to disagree) with a suggested skill curve, which I feel would be more conducive to both general enjoyment and game balance.
<img src='http://img172.exs.cx/img172/7586/fade8ah.png' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
I'm not suggesting for an instant that the skill aspect of optimum Fade usage should be attenuated and if you can read a graph, you'll already know this. Excellent fades, just like excellent skulks, Lerks and marines should significantly improve their team's chances of winning, in concert with tactics, strategy and communication. The suggested skill curve, if you examine it, doesn't change this dynamic. Top players would still retain the same impact on gameplay. The main difference is that average to good players would have an impact that would better reflect the resources they risk when they play.
What I <i>am</i> suggesting is that if the current skill curve of the fade was altered, it would both promote more enjoyable public play and ensure that the competitive community gets what it needs, i.e. a steady supply of decent fades. If player classes are frustrating to play (and getting spat out by both teams and insulted is not fun), then people will not have the incentive to play. This lack of incentive goes a fair way to explaining why you find relatively few highly skilled fades. Without a decent fade or two, you don't have a clan. Period. This kind of gameplay dynamic is not conducive to the long term success of a game in either public or clan play.
Improving the enjoyability of the gameplay for players (thus increasing the incentives to play in the Fade role), is not the only reason why this would be a beneficial move. There's also the issue of balance. The more extreme the skill curve for the Fade, the more difficult it becomes to balance the game, since the impact of the game element in question becomes too variable to factor in.
One way of compensating for this is to provide the opposite team with a comparative dynamic, so then at least the demands on the teams would have some semblance of symmetry. One could argue that the Commander fits a similar role, but the Commander is always dependent on his team to provide him with the resources in order to demonstrate such skill. Even then, by placing a requirement on one player to be exceptional at the game for a team to function, not only do you create an extremely stressful environment for that player (perhaps regular Commanders will back me up on this assertion), but you also <b>increase</b> the instability in the game balance.
Sensory chambers have caused a similar problem. Commanders already had to drop structures, make tactical decisions, research upgrades and deploy meds & ammo. The need for them now to be scanning constantly all the time simply puts an unreasonable demand for micromanagement on all but the very best of them. <b>They already had their hands full</b>. (Why marines weren't given something like 5 res scanners (a la combat mode) as a new item I'm not sure, but that's a tangent I won't explore further here.) By further jacking up the skill requirement for Commanders, you are encouraging a skill curve even more similar to the Fade, which exacerbates all the problems I've detailed above.
At this point, I'm sure many of you are saying something along the lines of <i>"WTH, he's suggesting we make fades MORE deadly? WTH is he smoking?"</i> Well, board rules prevent me from answering the second question, but I can put the first question into perspective.
Yes, I <b>am</b> suggesting that we improve the accessibilty of the fade for competent to good players. Not too much, because then everyone would Fade and the hives would never get built.
Naturally, the Frontiersmen would equally require a buff. Making Catpacks and Hand Grenades free to research or available from the start would be one way. Giving them an expensive, single shot weapon that drained adrenaline would be another (careful use would allow you to pick Lerks or Fades off, or stop gorges from healing hives, blah blah blah, I'm sure you can think it through). There are loads of ways to buff marines. After all, the development team have found a way to do it in every other version of NS. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
So, to restate it in a nutshell:
<b>The unusually high skills required to take the role of Fade are harmful to both the popularity of the game and to gameplay balance. Discuss. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> </b>
Postscript: (Please forgive the rather questionable grammar and any spelling mistakes in this post, I am doing it surreptitiously whilst at work. I will attempt to clean it up later as I spot errors).
Comments
Anyway, in many ways you can liken the fade to the AWP in Counter Strike. Only that the success of your game doesn't solely rely on having some people who can awp on your team.
But really, people have the means to not suck, it's called combat. I barely ever see people fading on low skill public combat servers. I don't know why, but I'm putting it down to them not wanting to have to work even the slightest bit to get better at one of the only things left that takes skill.
If I ever see a walker fade in a public server I always mention that they should tap blink to move around.
Anyway, in many ways you can liken the fade to the AWP in Counter Strike. Only that the success of your game doesn't solely rely on having some people who can awp on your team.
But really, people have the means to not suck, it's called combat. I barely ever see people fading on low skill public combat servers. I don't know why, but I'm putting it down to them not wanting to have to work even the slightest bit to get better at one of the only things left that takes skill.
If I ever see a walker fade in a public server I always mention that they should tap blink to move around. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Buggeh was the first person to leap to mind after Mustang. If he's not sufficiently skilled enough to be used in this example, then it kind of proves my point even further. I'll happily amend my example to something you suggest.
RE: Combat -
Saying people "should play combat" has the same inherent drawbacks as useful, but ultimately limited initiatives, such as NSLearn and the NSGuides.
People play games to have fun. They don't approach them like they are taking an exam. Saying "X is what someone should do" is to totally ignore human nature and the practical realities of the situation.
Would you not agree that the objective is to make the game as accessible as possible to everyone and to broaden its appeal, whilst retaining the involving and rewarding aspects of gameplay?
("Walker fades" are at the very bottom of the curve and are not relevant to what I am discussing here. AWPs are provided to both sides in CS, so have no impact on balance. They are also relatively easy to use.)
In 1.04 energy conservation was not as important. Though a skilled player would use it to gain an advantage, it was not a requirement to be able to fade. Today, not only do you need to learn how to manouver whilst blinking, which in my opinion is much harder, you also need to be able to keep an eye on your energy level all the time. A fade with no energy can quickly become a dead fade.
Also, the FPS your system produces has a large bearing on how well you can fade. With the old blink you were transported instantly and so needed no real close control. Now you need to make constant adjustments to your position and your frame rate can determine how quickly you can make those adjustments. I feel I can comment upon this as I recently upgraded my gfx card from a GF3 ti200 to a GF6600GT. Previously I would use adrenaline with the fade as I just could not control a celerity fade as it was too fast. Since my upgrade which has given me a constant 100fps compared to an average of around 40-50fps in a fight, I can easily use a celerity fade. The only difference is my gfx card. I also find fading as a whole much easier.
This leads me towards the conclusion that the fade has almost become like the 1.04 JP. On a average gfx card it is balanced. Give that person a decent gfx card and they become a better player. Give a skilled player a decent gfx card and the extra manouverability they have becomes unbalanced.
Everyone who doesnt believe mint should set his fps_max to 30 and feel that fading becomes alot harder. Fps has a decent impact on fading.
edit: my spelling sucks nearly as much as grendels fading <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The Fade is one of the few things that are very difficult to learn how to use properly in NS, bringing much needed depth into NS gameplay. It actually gives people a reason to try extra hard, to excell, instead of the usual mediocrity most people adhere to. While some players might be disheartened and never go "all the way", it gives incentive to players who like challenges, and gives the game added fun.
I'm sure the people who think going gorge and building huge walls of lame they can camp the entire game would disagree with me though.
the skill curve comes close to real life sports.
takes practise to become a 'average' fade, experience to be effective but talent to become a master.
this gives the true masters something like a 'jedi' or 'god' status. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
playing with a marine team against a superior fade gives the same feeling as playing as aliens against a very good comm.
when playing counter strike i feel the urge to gestate to fade
i love fades,.. almost as much as lerks and gorges. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Marines: major assault on the hives, most of the team is required to be present.
Aliens: one or two very skilled aliens can win the whole game.
Solutio: make aliens <b>more</b> dependent on teamwork, just like the Marines. Yes, I am suggesting that the aliens become more like the marines in one aspect of the game - because right now, it's not gameplay mechanics or anything that is unbalancing the game, but how people are thinking about the game - and that's of the Marines as all teamworky and a big group, while aliens are wondering about alone.
Lone Marine rambos should die, right? Yes, to promote teamwork, I've heard that thousands of times before
Do lone Alien rambos die? No, if they're half-skilled.
That's the problem. <b>Make fades more dependent on other players on their team.</b> And yes, I do know that there is a requirement for gorges to put up chambers/hives/res nodes, but that's not enough.
Now... how you plan to go about fixing this problem is beyond me.
The Fade is one of the few things that are very difficult to learn how to use properly in NS, bringing much needed depth into NS gameplay. It actually gives people a reason to try extra hard, to excell, instead of the usual mediocrity most people adhere to. While some players might be disheartened and never go "all the way", it gives incentive to players who like challenges, and gives the game added fun.
I'm sure the people who think going gorge and building huge walls of lame they can camp the entire game would disagree with me though. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<Invective Stripped at Grendel's Request. Belief behind it still holds.>
At any rate, if you look at the skill curves Grendel provided (which I disagree with only in that I feel he didn't make the current fade increase sharp enough) you'll note that you still need to be extremely skilled to maximize impact. So that aspect doesn't change.
What changes is that, with the consequent marine buffs that Grendel also suggests, the game becomes easier to balance (because it's not single-player dominated), there's room for much needed improvement on the alien end game, and newcomers don't leave in frustration after killing their team by poor fade use. This attitude that only the hardcore should be able to play well is the kind of thing that kills games, because if allowed to thrive, you sooner or later wind up with a game that only appeals to the hardcore.. but that's a pretty small audience. How small? I'd be willing to bet that you can estimate it pretty accurately simply by going through the current clan roster and adding about 10%.
Perhaps more importantly your clan scene opens up because even if a group doesn't have a great fade, merely a good one, they can still play and have some semblence of giving a reasonable showing if their other classes are excellent.
And no, from everything I've seen, marines don't get exponentially better as they improve. If you want to get into detail, learning certain courses of action gives them minor bumps (like knowing how and when to bunnyhop etc) but other than that the marine curve increases a lot closer to Grendel's suggested fade curve, if not even flatter than that. The commander may have a similar curve to the fade.. but he'd be the only one.
Now, from my own point of view, I think the marines power-levels are pretty good as they are right now (with the exception of the hand grenade) and would prefer to see Grendel's objective achieved through a fade nerf. However, if that's not possible (and I'm beginning to think it's not based on some of the arguments I've seen for <i>why</i> the fade curve is like it is) this idea is certainly a good alternative.
Please. Unless all of the other Aliens are superawesome Lerks and they do a 5 Lerk / 1 Gorge strat and then rush MS, the game is already over. If the Fade is 'good' against 'good' shots, he will either A.die or B.not accomplish anything. There is no room for 'good' in competitive NS. Good gets you 4th place, and everyone stops counting after 1.
"And no, from everything I've seen, marines don't get exponentially better as they improve. If you want to get into detail, learning certain courses of action gives them minor bumps (like knowing how and when to bunnyhop etc) but other than that the marine curve increases a lot closer to Grendel's suggested fade curve, if not even flatter than that. The commander may have a similar curve to the fade.. but he'd be the only one."
I take it you havent watched many Delta CAL-NS matches have you?
The game is balanced. The players are not. Learn it. Love it. Die.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Fade is one of the few things that are very difficult to learn how to use properly in NS, bringing much needed depth into NS gameplay. It actually gives people a reason to try extra hard, to excell, instead of the usual mediocrity most people adhere to. While some players might be disheartened and never go "all the way", it gives incentive to players who like challenges, and gives the game added fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is, there <b>isn't</b> much incentive to practice the fade. My whole point is that the effort/reward is so heavily biased toward effort, that it disuades most people from learning it to begin with. There's nothing fun about getting violated repeatedly on a public server because you don't have any decent fades and no one is willing to even try because they're tired of dying instantly.
Besides which, I'm not suggesting that the fade become uniformly easier to use, just moderately more rewarding to practice and play with. Top players would still be unassailably 1337.
Re: Church
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I actually want the gaem to rely less on Fades overall and more on the entire team working together. We should give more killing power to other lifeforms.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good for you. However, this does not really anything to do with the skill curve. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Re: Manos
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i think the fade skill-curve is just the way i like it.
the skill curve comes close to real life sports.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not like I'm suggesting changing the higher end of the skill curve, as the graph suggests. I like the exponential aspect of the top of the curve as much as anyone, which is why I consider Q3 to be one of the best multiplayer games ever made. If anything, what I'm suggesting is bringing it closer to real sports. Average to decent players can still have a significant impact on the game.
If real sports had the kind of curve that the fade did, you'd be playing soccer with a goal 2 feet wide. And a box full of claymores. And every time you missed the goal, you'd have to wait on the sidelines for twenty minutes.
Re: NGE
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The skill curve of the fade matches the skill curve of the marines, the better the marines get the exponentially better they do in game as well, so it evens out. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines are less dependant on movement than the fade, which significantly reduces the requisite skill set. Marines also have low damage, rapid fire weapons, which means that the skill progression is pretty linear. As you get better, you hit more times on average. Because your data sample is larger, you get more predictable results and better compensation for error. The shotgun works in the same way, but the rounds are fired simultaneously. Without the spread pattern (i.e. if the shotgun worked like a rail gun), your assertion would be true. But it isn't.
The only exception to this rule is the grenade launcher, which rarely sees use in clan play <b>because</b> it is not a weapon that has a reliable mean damage.
Re: SLizer
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think that the whole game should somehowe be withered away from the fades dictature. As grendel says Fades are like AWP`s if you gotta guy who knows how to shoot you can just lay back and have fun, If you don`t have you are trying to scrap new res to back up those fades who said "bye bye" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I said no such thing, made no such comparision and certainly did not suggest that Fades should be weakened or their role should be lessened. Please read again as I think you have two posts mixed up. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Re: 2 of Eight
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Make fades more dependent on other players on their team. And yes, I do know that there is a requirement for gorges to put up chambers/hives/res nodes, but that's not enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is pretty much diametrically opposed to my initial arguement in terms of balance and would serve only to flatten the skill curve at the top, which is one place you should never do it. Doing that robs players of long-term gameplay rewards. Besides, otherwise, how do you find out who's the best? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The FPS that a person gets has a huge impact on how well that player does...I remember back in the day, when I was just getting into CS using my 8MB ATI Rage Pro...I was pulling 20 FPS max, and barely held my own. Then I went out and bought a radeon 7000, and my apparent skill suddenly shot through the roof
Sadly, my computer's on the low end of things again...I can still play NS well, but none of the new games (even HL2) run well enough on my system for me to be competitive...
If anyone cares, I have an athlon xp 2000+, radeon 9500 128MB (non-pro)
And as for fades, (been mentioned before) I would suggest placing a minimum adren level for blink to work (15-20%, subject to tweaking) This wouldn't hurt very good players too much (I know someone will disagree with this), as there's still plenty to blink in, swipe, blink out, but it would help less skilled players stay alive by forcing them to retreat sooner, instead of waiting till the last second then dying on the way out.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So you'd rather have new blood leaving than risk your ego boost from being able to show off your skills as an elite fader?
Nice.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whilst it's nice that my argument strikes a chord with someone, bringing drama to the table is just going to derail what I hope will prove a useful, constructive and well argued thread. Any chance you could edit in an apology? That would be the decent thing to do and even I've managed it on occasion.
And Abix - apart from displaying the fact you've not read through the thread, you've also been unnecessarily rude. Why? Any chance you could cut it out?
I would suggest, however, that part of the problem stems not from the skill of the fade player but from the total dependence on fades in pub matches. I think some kind of mid-game beefing of the skulk is needed, as leap seems to be too difficult for the average pubber to use with anything approaching the deadliness of a clanner. Perhaps a "bunnyhop key" that activates with two or more hives?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The thing is, there isn't much incentive to practice the fade. My whole point is that the effort/reward is so heavily biased toward effort, that it disuades most people from learning it to begin with. There's nothing fun about getting violated repeatedly on a public server because you don't have any decent fades and no one is willing to even try because they're tired of dying instantly.
Besides which, I'm not suggesting that the fade become uniformly easier to use, just moderately more rewarding to practice and play with. Top players would still be unassailably 1337. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not much incentive. How is being the deadliest Alien class that can(under the right hands) massacre the better half of a Marine team and somtimes singlehandedly brining home the bacon NOT incentive? Back in 2.0ish when I was still a pub nub, I remember folks in clans and with icons and **** coming onto the server I played on and absolutely raping us little pub nubs. People that kicked my **** with Fade are the main reason that I got into Fade and am pretty damn good at it now. Whatever doesnt kill you makes you stronger.
Additionally, I do believe that although it may not be *fun* to get killed as Fade, its called learning. Surely you dont expect SomeRandomGuy to download NS, join a server, Fade, and kill the whole Marine team! Fade takes time to get good at. Its the 3rd hardest class to be good at in NS(Commander->Lerk->Fade), and its also the Aliens main weapon.
"It's not like I'm suggesting changing the higher end of the skill curve, as the graph suggests. I like the exponential aspect of the top of the curve as much as anyone, which is why I consider Q3 to be one of the best multiplayer games ever made. If anything, what I'm suggesting is bringing it closer to real sports. Average to decent players can still have a significant impact on the game.
If real sports had the kind of curve that the fade did, you'd be playing soccer with a goal 2 feet wide. And a box full of claymores. And every time you missed the goal, you'd have to wait on the sidelines for twenty minutes."
Average to decent players CAN still have a significant impact on the game. Just not as Fade. Aliens rely on their team about the same if not more than Marines. An average/decent Lerk can help a helluva lot, as can a skulk at the right time, or a Gorge in the right vent.
If NS had the skill curve that 'real sports' had, then we would all be kicking a small ball around a field, and there would be no Fades/Lerks/Comms/JP/HA/HMG/etc...WTH?! Get that **** outa here. Dont compare apples to oranges.
However once marines get shotguns the skill level changes greatly, suddenly 2 marines can take you out in a couple of seconds. At this stage then I think the curve you have drawn is just about right. Its this large disparity in the fades abilities that makes people less willing to take it, people with less skill (like myself) can only take out 1 shotgunner at a time and even then only if hes on his own. So suddenly you go from going around owning all marines, to getting killed really quickly.
I think this happens cause alien mid-game (the first apperance of the fade) tends to happen a few mins before marines get shotguns, so they start off really buff, and then when the marines catch up they suddenly lose it all. So maybe they need some extra strength when the 2nd hive goes up? Something which will allow them to take more shotgun blasts.
Reduce Blink's energy useage. If blink only used 1/2 or 3/4th of the energy it did now, it would be much easier to pick up movement with blink. This wouldn't affect any other weapon.
Make hud_fastswitch 1 the default - it would make blink-swiping easier to pick up.
[EDIT] A third idea would be to icrease the effective area of swipe, so a newer fade has a better chance of hitting an enemy.
[EDIT2] Perhaps metabolize could be changed so that you can use it even when you're out of adrenaline.
This would put more emphasis on thinking when fading (do I have enough health to take on that marine? Can I get out of the room in time? etc. etc.) than on energy management, plus it would make the controlls for aliens much more intuitive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Average to decent players CAN still have a significant impact on the game. Just not as Fade. Aliens rely on their team about the same if not more than Marines. An average/decent Lerk can help a helluva lot, as can a skulk at the right time, or a Gorge in the right vent.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They can have an impact on the game. But ultimately without a fade, most of their impact will be reduced to leaving stains on the architecture whilst marines with HMGs tear apart their hive.
I'm not comparing apples to oranges. I'm using someone elses analogy, hopefully humourously, to compare one competitive team game to another competitive team game. But what's wrong with comparing apples to oranges anyway? They are both edible flora which are used in a similar manner.
However once marines get shotguns the skill level changes greatly, suddenly 2 marines can take you out in a couple of seconds. At this stage then I think the curve you have drawn is just about right. Its this large disparity in the fades abilities that makes people less willing to take it, people with less skill (like myself) can only take out 1 shotgunner at a time and even then only if hes on his own. So suddenly you go from going around owning all marines, to getting killed really quickly.
I think this happens cause alien mid-game (the first apperance of the fade) tends to happen a few mins before marines get shotguns, so they start off really buff, and then when the marines catch up they suddenly lose it all. So maybe they need some extra strength when the 2nd hive goes up? Something which will allow them to take more shotgun blasts. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, the second hive does already buff armour and it also means that the Fade in question will get a benefit from an additional chamber type. I'm already factoring in shotguns, as the first time a marine so much as smells a fade, the marine spawn is usually littered with 12 gauge flavoured death.
<img src='http://server3.uploadit.org/files/jimbo4ever-balance.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
NS balance, IMHO.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think that two simple changes would help with fading:
Reduce Blink's energy useage. If blink only used 1/2 or 3/4th of the energy it did now, it would be much easier to pick up movement with blink. This wouldn't affect any other weapon.
Make hud_fastswitch 1 the default - it would make blink-swiping easier to pick up.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firstly, to answer DragonMech, reducing blink cost just uniformly makes fading easier and also means that blinking would effectively be permanent. Secondly, Fades without Hud_fastswitch 1 are barely above walker fades on the curve.
Re: Church
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Don't get me wrong Grendel, I agree with you, but how do you suggest we go about doing it? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've got a number of thougths on the matter, but I'm not a member of the Dev team so it's not my call. Besides which, they can work it out for themselves. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Besides, this isn't I&S and this thread isn't meant to be looking for suggestions. It's designed to identify an issue and see if a consensus can be reached through intelligent debate on the subject. So far, we're doing pretty well and thanks to all who have added constructive feedback, whether you agree with me or not.
Whilst it's nice that my argument strikes a chord with someone, bringing drama to the table is just going to derail what I hope will prove a useful, constructive and well argued thread. Any chance you could edit in an apology? That would be the decent thing to do and even I've managed it on occasion.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Apologies to you, Grendel, for doing such. You're right, I shouldn't let such things have a chance to derail a decent thread.
The comment involved has been removed, though as I say there, the belief that caused me to post it remains.
Once again, we have another person saying that 'casual' players should be able to be at the same 'level' as 'experts.' If you would truthfully like something like that in a game you play on, then go play a MMORPG where the only 'skill' is hitting the right hotkey at the right moment. NS is a FPS/RTS, and as such, the skill level of players will increase/decrease depending on how much time they put into it, how quickly they learn new stuff, as well as their latent skill. Trying to change that is like trying to make the sun rise in the west and set in the east.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think some kind of mid-game beefing of the skulk is needed, as leap seems to be too difficult for the average pubber to use with anything approaching the deadliness of a clanner. Perhaps a "bunnyhop key" that activates with two or more hives?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<span style='color:orange'>*snip*</span>The leap from one Hive to two Hives is where Aliens gain a helluva lotta power. They all can innately take more damage, the Fade can metabolize, the Skulk can leap, the Gorge can bilebomb, the Lerk can umbra, and the Onos can stomp. If you actually think about those abilities, they provide each class to do its job a helluva better. Lets break this down:
Fade(fighter)->Metabolize->Can stay in/near combat longer
Skulk(support fighter)->Leap->Can quickly get into range to help do damage
Gorge(builder)->Bilebomb->No more reliance on skulks to have to take down nodes/buildings
Lerk(support)->Umbra->Allows teammates to stay in battle longer
Onos(superfighter)->Stomp->Need I say more?
With all of that in mind, how can you ask that the default Alien class get a BOOST of any sort at two hives? Let me ask another question: Would you give the OK to giving Marines shotguns on spawn after the armory is upgraded? Or having JP/HA being a one-time-drop? Hell no. Not unless <span style='color:orange'>and from here on out in the post, you should've been a lot more polite. No need to insult other members to try to get your point across.</span>
<img src='http://server3.uploadit.org/files/jimbo4ever-balance.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
NS balance, IMHO. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whilst it made me chuckle, it's not really tremendously constructive. If you think my idea is wrong, why not tell me why? I didn't say I was plotting a graph based on hard data. I specifically stated it was simply a visual representational aid.