ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
If we do this, then slot2 should be this new weapon, and slot1 should be something else. We don't need this blinkswipe AND blink, not to mention if this blinkswipe was in slot1 even a Fade with no hives can still fend off marines and run away all day (no POD in Tourny mode, and there's innate regen). Plus, killing resource towers would be ANNOYING as heck.
Considering what we have to work with I think this is a very decent idea. As much as clanners may be comfortable with it, the two weapon requirement for fade is what makes it so hard to use for 'average' players. I think we need to remove the NEED to use two weapons, while still allowing the ability to use two weapons.
In regard to competitive play, we could make it so that when there are no hives the 'blinkswipe' weapon turns into a 'swipe' weapon. That should address your concern of the never-ending game at zero hives. Fair enough?
We need to make compromises here, and I think the competitive players should be willing to make a small compromise so long as it doesn't significantly impact competitive play.
Will taking out a res node be more work? That depends on what you call work. Instead of pressing and holding your fire button, you would have to tap your fire button. I don't think that's too hard.... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Let's try and find a solution instead of finding more problems... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Okay, how long does it take to take out a res tower with a fade? I'd say roughly 45 seconds. You want to stand in one place tapping a button for 45 seconds? My finger would get pretty tired. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And, no. Just, no. Making people hold down the attack button to blink is incredibly stupid, because it completely takes away the possibility for air control, blinking in different directions, etc. Unless of course you drastically cut the adrenaline usage, in which case uber fades won't even have to worry about conserving adrenaline, so they'll just be harder to kill.
I'm still confused why it's SO BAD that one alien class is off limits to new players. JPs are completely useless to new players; they'll just get stuck on the ceiling, waste their fuel, and die to a skulk. Commanding is off limits to new players; should we make commanding easier as well? It's really not that big of a deal that only people who have practiced can fade, seriously. It's not like it's the only class where you can have any fun. Leave the fade alone already. There is stuff in NS that people of all skill levels can do to help the team and have fun, fading just happens to be something not everyone can do. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let's try and find a solution instead of finding more problems<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Or you can just admit that there is no problem. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Mar 25 2005, 06:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Mar 25 2005, 06:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm still confused why it's SO BAD that one alien class is off limits to new players. JPs are completely useless to new players; they'll just get stuck on the ceiling, waste their fuel, and die to a skulk. Commanding is off limits to new players; should we make commanding easier as well? It's really not that big of a deal that only people who have practiced can fade, seriously. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Without good fades, marines are more or less guaranteed a win.
At least most people have experience of playing RTS games. Besides which, players can at least attempt to command from the start.
The same cannot be said for our favourite high speed, high maneouverability, melee class alien. The situation is exacerbated by problems with geometry, framerate and the fact that you have to wait 5 minutes per try. Most newbies get owned instantly, which is not conducive to a "fun" experience. Even people with a moderate amount of practice time under their belt die fairly swiftly.
Then it's just a matter of slowly waiting for the marines to come to your hive, which is, in itself, fairly tedious.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
I'd also add that whilst weapon switching does not make fading any easier, I've got no problems with rapidly changing weapons and yet I'm still blatantly at the noob end of the scale.
My difficulty comes from the incredibly high speed of the blink, the obstacle filled environments, lag when attempting to blink, the unintuitive range of swipe and the constant threat of instantaneous death.
There's no doubt that learning to control the fade is extremely rewarding, it's just that it's extremely frustrating to get there and most players won't bother.
high speed of blink: slow blink down and make the fade invisible. A cross between 3.0's blink and the original blink, except it's still a movement ability, not a teleport
obstacle-filled environments: not gonna change. NS's maps are beautiful, and mappers aren't going to redo maps because they make things difficult for fades (except of course silly map mistakes like the invisible walls in vent hive on hera, which are still there for some reason).
lag when attempting to blink: Nothing much the devs can do to fix this. Maybe the slower, invisible blink would help
Unintuitive range of swipe: Yes, I suppose a bigger swipe range would make more sense. Right now it seems the skulk's mouth is longer than the fade's arms.
Constant threat of imminent death: You could say the same for the onos. If high lifeforms don't feel threatened whenever they're around marines, that means they don't have to worry about them, which means they're fairly unkillable. Not a good thing. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'd rather not change the fade at all, but if it <u>has</u> to be changed, invisible blink and larger swipe range are what I'd suggest.
Not enough weapons free for that. I imagine if ns source was made there'd be another lifeform at about 45 res, fade would be 75 and onos 100. Buffs and such as required. It would probably be some kind of super skulk and this would give noobs a lifeform that could make more of a difference without requiring vast amounts of skill.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Mar 25 2005, 12:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Mar 25 2005, 12:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let's try and find a solution instead of finding more problems<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Or you can just admit that there is no problem. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Responses like this really highlight the ignorance that some people have with regard to the issues that we face in making the game more user friendly. If <b>you</b> don't think there is a problem, then that's fine. However, the developers have repeatedly expressed concerns over the difficultly people have in playing on the alien team. (and as commander - but that's a different thread) The fade just happens to be the pinnacle of this issue, given the importance of the fade to the alien game.<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Okay, how long does it take to take out a res tower with a fade? I'd say roughly 45 seconds. You want to stand in one place tapping a button for 45 seconds? My finger would get pretty tired. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Oh boo hoo... you're kidding right? You spend an entire game 'tapping' buttons, and you're saying it would tiring to take out a res node because you would have to tap your finger on the fire button while standing still? If tapping buttons is tiring for you, then perhaps you should reconsider whether gaming is right for you... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And, no. Just, no. Making people hold down the attack button to blink is incredibly stupid, because it completely takes away the possibility for air control, blinking in different directions, etc. Unless of course you drastically cut the adrenaline usage, in which case uber fades won't even have to worry about conserving adrenaline, so they'll just be harder to kill. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->These are all issues that can be addressed if my suggestion was implemented. I didn't address every possible variance since that is something that can be done as things progress, the fact is that my IDEA gives people the ability to use the class in a manner that would allow for more people to play that class on public servers. This improves the game's "playability" and makes it that much more user friendly. The status quo is not an option here, and just 'leaving the game as it is' will guarantee that NS will never improve and never reach the next level. (IE, Source) Maybe that's what you want, but it's not what I want.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm still confused why it's SO BAD that one alien class is off limits to new players. ... It's really not that big of a deal that only people who have practiced can fade, seriously.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->The problem is not that the class is off limits to 'new' players, (which this isn't just about new players, there are PLENTY of people who play all the time that don't play fade because of the difficulty/effort involved) this is about a class that is 'off-limits' to some players yet is CRUCIAL to alien gameplay. If the fade wasn't so important to the alien game, then we wouldn't be having this debate.
Weapon switching is only ONE aspect of the problem we have with the fade. I'm trying to look for small simple solutions that can improve individual aspects, which when combined, can improve an average user's ability to play the fade.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ahnteis+Mar 25 2005, 02:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ahnteis @ Mar 25 2005, 02:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As an alternate to changing the fade, we could introduce a NEW LIFEFORM with a lower learning curve to fill the void.
>_> <_<
<!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> A lifefrom that hovers no less...
Savant, I disagree with the combination of blink and swipe. It is not versitile at all, and like it's scripted counterpart, wouldn't be flexible enouph to make quick decisions.
<span style='color:red'>*note* This thread is not to turn into ANY form of scripting vs non scripting. This is just a <i>similar</i> example to demonstrate why I believe Savants suggestiong doesn't work well.</span> Scripted counter part? <!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1--> alias +blinky "slot2; +attack" alias -blinky "-attack; slot1; +attack; -attack" bind mouse1 +blinky <!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
If you go ahead and play with this, you will find yourself swiping after each blink, unless you have no adrenaline left. If you had to get out of a hairy situation, the extra swipe might drain your adrenaline to the point where you could not get out. It takes the choice away as to when you decide, or if you decide, to use a specific weapon.
Now I know the above isnt *exactly* how you are suggesting the change, but I think its close enouph for a comparison. Combining the two attacks just takes away the control to the fade, making it much more difficult to use and learn IMHO.
<!--QuoteBegin-Savant+Mar 25 2005, 02:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 25 2005, 02:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Mar 25 2005, 12:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Mar 25 2005, 12:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let's try and find a solution instead of finding more problems<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Or you can just admit that there is no problem. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Responses like this really highlight the ignorance that some people have with regard to the issues that we face in making the game more user friendly. If <b>you</b> don't think there is a problem, then that's fine. However, the developers have repeatedly expressed concerns over the difficultly people have in playing on the alien team. (and as commander - but that's a different thread) The fade just happens to be the pinnacle of this issue, given the importance of the fade to the alien game <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> More user friendly? If you can't play the fade, there are 4 other classes available. The fade may be tough to play, but sporing from a vent is both helpful for the team and not as skill-intensive. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Okay, how long does it take to take out a res tower with a fade? I'd say roughly 45 seconds. You want to stand in one place tapping a button for 45 seconds? My finger would get pretty tired. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Oh boo hoo... you're kidding right? You spend an entire game 'tapping' buttons, and you're saying it would tiring to take out a res node because you would have to tap your finger on the fire button while standing still? If tapping buttons is tiring for you, then perhaps you should reconsider whether gaming is right for you... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But never do you have to tap buttons in exactly the same rhythm for 45 seconds. Tap...tap...tap...tap. You can't keep that up without making a mistake for that long. They rhythm is necessary, and it's also what will make swiping down any building incredibly annoying for a fade. Just a small mistake, and he'll do a little blink. Possibly setting off a mine killing the skulk next to him. Imagine if the only way to bite was to press a button that, if you pushed for just a fraction of a second too long, would send you flying in a leap. That's just a flat-out stupid control setup. Besides, half of the fun of fading is flying around, mashing your blink/swipe/meta bound keys. It's more like you're piloting the fade than just playing it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And, no. Just, no. Making people hold down the attack button to blink is incredibly stupid, because it completely takes away the possibility for air control, blinking in different directions, etc. Unless of course you drastically cut the adrenaline usage, in which case uber fades won't even have to worry about conserving adrenaline, so they'll just be harder to kill. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->These are all issues that can be addressed if my suggestion was implemented. I didn't address every possible variance since that is something that can be done as things progress, the fact is that my IDEA gives people the ability to use the class in a manner that would allow for more people to play that class on public servers. This improves the game's "playability" and makes it that much more user friendly. The status quo is not an option here, and just 'leaving the game as it is' will guarantee that NS will never improve and never reach the next level. (IE, Source) Maybe that's what you want, but it's not what I want.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> First of all, how exactly would you tackle the issue of not being able to blink in multiple directions in midair, keeping in mind that you have to hold blink in order to blink, while maintaining the current adrenaline usage? You can't. But if you tone down the adrenaline consumption, you'll have people who never even come close to running out of energy. The best fades can already do this, and they make no mistakes. Do you want fades who <u>do</u> make mistakes to be as powerful?
Also, I'm interested in hearing the logic behind the statement "If we don't change the fade, NS will never make it to Source." It sounds to me like you're getting overly wrapped up in your own importance, and in the importance of this topic.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm still confused why it's SO BAD that one alien class is off limits to new players. ... It's really not that big of a deal that only people who have practiced can fade, seriously.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->The problem is not that the class is off limits to 'new' players, (which this isn't just about new players, there are PLENTY of people who play all the time that don't play fade because of the difficulty/effort involved) this is about a class that is 'off-limits' to some players yet is CRUCIAL to alien gameplay. If the fade wasn't so important to the alien game, then we wouldn't be having this debate.
Weapon switching is only ONE aspect of the problem we have with the fade. I'm trying to look for small simple solutions that can improve individual aspects, which when combined, can improve an average user's ability to play the fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In case you missed Grendel's post, it is not the weapon switching that makes the fade difficult to play. If we implemented your suggestion, it would just kill the current way to play fade, AND it wouldn't make it any easier for new players to play. Furthermore, quick weapon switching is a vital part of ALL lifeforms. Blink-swipe-meta. Xeno-leap-bite. Spore-umbra-bite-umbra. Stomp-devour-stomp. It's a necessary frickin skill. Learn it, use it, love it.
Also, in your search to fix alien gameplay as a whole, you've completely focused on the fade as the problem, instead of trying to fix the parts of the game that make the fade THE deciding factor in games. In case you haven't noticed, skulks and lerks are quite enough in 3.0 to hold the marines off until the second hive goes up. The death of the first fade no longer results in cries of "gg". Maybe the second or third fade, but then again the failure of the 2nd or 3rd shotty or siege rushes also result in cries of "gg", which is how it's supposed to be. So, once again, changing the fade is unnecessary.
<!--QuoteBegin-digz+Mar 25 2005, 02:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (digz @ Mar 25 2005, 02:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Savant, I disagree with the combination of blink and swipe. It is not versitile at all, and like it's scripted counterpart, wouldn't be flexible enouph to make quick decisions.
<span style='color:red'>*note* This thread is not to turn into ANY form of scripting vs non scripting. This is just a <i>similar</i> example to demonstrate why I believe Savants suggestiong doesn't work well.</span> Scripted counter part? <!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1--> alias +blinky "slot2; +attack" alias -blinky "-attack; slot1; +attack; -attack" bind mouse1 +blinky <!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
If you go ahead and play with this, you will find yourself swiping after each blink, unless you have no adrenaline left. If you had to get out of a hairy situation, the extra swipe might drain your adrenaline to the point where you could not get out. It takes the choice away as to when you decide, or if you decide, to use a specific weapon.
Now I know the above isnt *exactly* how you are suggesting the change, but I think its close enouph for a comparison. Combining the two attacks just takes away the control to the fade, making it much more difficult to use and learn IMHO. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Blink doesn't nessicarily HAVE to be the adreniline hog it is. The only reason it works that way is because it is nessicary when the thing acts like a jet engine blast. If the only method of swiping would be to release blink then blink could be tweaked to use very little adrenaline while held, after all, without an active swipe ability you would have to blink in and out for every attack anyways.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
edited March 2005
Savant:
While I agree with the general sentiment of this thread, I do not agree with your proposed change.
<s>It's a waste of time because I can play the fade fine now.</s>
It would require drastic changes to the basic workings of blink. The requirement of holding the attack button to blink-swipe would be extremely wasteful of energy; it would force a severe reduction in the energy cost of blink. This, however, would lead to possible abuse of the lowered energy cost by tapping the attack button and thereby avoiding any real energy cost. This would have to be prevented; merely weakening it might still lead to experts using blink in a completely different way than average players. The ultimate result, then, is to transform the blink into a simple point-and-hold-mouse1 movement ability. All or almost all possibilities for skill in maneuvering oneself and conserving energy would be lost.
While there may be better ways to solve the above problems, I cannot see them. Without a major reduction in blink's energy cost, holding the attack key would be completely unviable, and we would be back where we started. If tapping the attack key to conserve energy were not made unviable, we would have experts and average players using the blink ability in completely different ways. This would greatly steepen the transition from good fade to expert, and I doubt many people want that. Then, with the blink now a simple point-and-hold-mouse1 movement ability, the skill curve of the fade starts to plateau at the region of 'decent fade'.
Its a pity there's no way to get an extra class in.
TBH I've seen a soar in the use of lerks - celerity lerk takes very little skill to use effectively (yet is still lethal in the hands of the skilled) and is very intuitive to use.
Lerk is of course cheaper, easily replaced, and while not <i>essential</i> to the game, can certainly be a contributing factor.
Fades, as they stand, ARE essential to the game (Lerks are good but versus HA you've got to be kidding).
I don't like the idea of combining blink and swipe, I find it hard to imagine how it work ingame, other than some kind of superpowered leap. Considering blink is hard enough to aim as is, adding a swipe on the end and trying to use it to kill sounds crazy.
Why not just make blink controll more like a lerk's glide? Just a thought Id pop in before I go eat lunch. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> = skulk burgers.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
edited March 2005
Just to re-iterate, not only do I think that the Blink/Swipe suggestion fails to address any of the real problems with the Fade class, but I also think that it's a non-starter of an idea because:
a) It would require you to terminate the blink whilst in contact with a marine. That would require just as much, if not more timing than the current blink. Consider how difficult it is to use charge
b) It reduces user control, which is never desirable in any game and would penalise better players more
c) It would presumably need to cycle before you could blink again, which makes it potentially even <b>more</b> likely to get the user killed.
<span style='color:yellow'><b>It seems at this point that it is inevitable that the thread is going to head in the direction of I&S. As people are posting suggestions as to what they would do to the Fade to make it more useful in the hands of the non-1337, I would be interested to see which of these alternatives people would prefer:</b></span>
<span style='color:green'>a) Give the Fade the ability to see marine levels of damage (imagine KharaaVision but using Green/Yellow/Red colouration). This would allow the fade to pick its targets better. It would also hopefully give players a better understanding of how to compose their attack runs.
b) Buff HP, but drop damage per swipe. This would both necessitate more attack runs (more practice for newbies) whilst giving the Fade a better chance to get out alive. It would also prevent the Fade from instagibbing stock marines as soon as it got focus.
c) Drop the cost of fades, but also drop their damage or HP/Armour or possibly both. This has the advantages of b), plus it also means that players will be more likely to try fading.
d) Increase swipe range, but decrease the ROF. This would hopefully reduce the temptation to hang around for "just one more hit" (melee addiction <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ). It would make hitting people easier, but at the trade off that you get less shots.</span>
Frankly, the more I read the thread, the more I am reminded of how much the game <i>(in my opinon)</i> could desparately do with a new engine and a fresh design without the current design legacy. But that's a totally different thread. ^_^
Feel free to post your own ideas. I'm sure you will. Though <b>it would help to give a general idea of preferences if people stated if they'd rather see of a), b), c) or d).</b> Also, please note that the objective is not to uniformly make the fade easier to play, simply to make it more useful without a degree from the University of Pwn.
Bear in mind that total reworkings aren't going to happen, except possibly Tank's blink mod and that's because he's doing the coding. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
1) New lifeform at similar tech level, but played in a more traditional FPS control scheme. Allows godly fading for the experienced and gives an alternative for newer players who don't want to feel useless.
2) Separate keys for blink and swipe (similarly leap and bite). No weapons changing needed. No blink+swipe combo. (Blink, leap, and charge are functionally similar to the "sprint" key found in many FPS games and people seem to be able to handle that.) Fairly simple to code key to do specific "attack" based on lifeform.
3) Make onos more then just a siege unit. There's a reason highly skilled players prefer the cheaper fade over the more costly onos. (Personally, I'd suggest making redemption actually work. Again. Of course, that hurts combat, but that's a separate issue.)
EDIT: Previous post was made while I slowly typed. I think tanks blink should be put in no matter what other changes happen.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Mar 25 2005, 08:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Mar 25 2005, 08:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> d) Increase swipe range, but decrease the ROF. This would hopefully reduce the temptation to hang around for "just one more hit" (melee addiction <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ). It would make hitting people easier, but at the trade off that you get less shots.[/color]
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i like suggestion d) the most. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Cheapen it, then make it a get in, smack once, get out.
D has the unfortunate side effect of making structures slightly harder to take down, but electricity could use a boost anyway, and C handles any imbalance from a more powerful electrified RT. (Not to mention it increases the relative usefulness of the Onos in taking structures apart.)
Beyond this, I'm curious what the experts think might happen if the momentum from blink was taken away? Ie, when you let go, you stop. This would tend to prevent extended flights and would make the blink a little easier to control, but what other effects might be expected from it?
<!--QuoteBegin-Manos+Mar 25 2005, 11:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Manos @ Mar 25 2005, 11:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Mar 25 2005, 08:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Mar 25 2005, 08:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> d) Increase swipe range, but decrease the ROF. This would hopefully reduce the temptation to hang around for "just one more hit" (melee addiction <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ). It would make hitting people easier, but at the trade off that you get less shots.[/color]
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> i like suggestion d) the most. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> QFE
Especially when you consider that the fades "claws?" are rather mantis like.
<!--QuoteBegin-Faskalia+Mar 25 2005, 05:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Faskalia @ Mar 25 2005, 05:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Manos+Mar 25 2005, 11:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Manos @ Mar 25 2005, 11:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Mar 25 2005, 08:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Mar 25 2005, 08:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> d) Increase swipe range, but decrease the ROF. This would hopefully reduce the temptation to hang around for "just one more hit" (melee addiction <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ). It would make hitting people easier, but at the trade off that you get less shots.[/color]
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> i like suggestion d) the most. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> QFE
Especially when you consider that the fades "claws?" are rather mantis like. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It would also weaken focus fades by a small degree.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Mar 25 2005, 03:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Mar 25 2005, 03:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just to re-iterate, not only do I think that the Blink/Swipe suggestion fails to address any of the real problems with the Fade class, but I also think that it's a non-starter of an idea because:<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Actually, I don't think I have expressed myself clearly enough because you have a markedly different impression of my idea than I do. This isn't like leap or charge at all, there is no 'minimum distance' or minimum usage tied to this at all. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->a) It would require you to terminate the blink whilst in contact with a marine. That would require just as much, if not more timing than the current blink. Consider how difficult it is to use charge<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->You wouldn't need to be in contact with a marine at all, you just need to be in range of hitting them with a swipe. The ability to get yourself in range of the marine is <b>NO DIFFERENT</b> than it is with the fade as it stands now. The only difference is that with the ade now, you have to get in range of a marine, THEN change weapons, THEN attack the marine. All this while the marine is hopping around like a madman. In my opinion the latter is a LOT harder to pull off. If we combine the two, when you are in range of the marine, you let go of attack and you immediately have swiped at the marine. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->b) It reduces user control, which is never desirable in any game and would penalise better players more<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'm sorry, but I can't see any way to leave the fade 'as is' and somehow make it easier to use. We can't have it both ways. There will have to be compromises made, and I think that if it does make it a bit harder for more skilled players to 'pull off' the attack they desire, then I would rather put the load on them since they are far more likely to adapt to it. For the lesser skilled, it would be easier to control since it would be tailored to allow the user to control the direction of the blink while moving. Just as with the lerk, when you are travelling in air you turn your mouse and your player will turn. If it is still too hard to control then perhaps slow the blink speed a bit. Keep in mind that blink is hard to control now, so this can't be any worse that what we have. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->c) It would presumably need to cycle before you could blink again, which makes it potentially even <b>more</b> likely to get the user killed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Perhaps you think this is like leap or charge, it is not. There is no 'cycle' and no minimum period one has to blink. Press attack and you start to blink, release attack and you stop blinking and take a swipe.
While your suggestions all have merit, they do nothing to make using the fade any easier to play. At present I see the apex of the fade skill issue is the mandatory need for a fade to use blink <b>THEN</b> switch to another weapon to attack <b>THEN</b> switch back to blink to vacate the combat zone - all done within a very short period of time.
I'm sorry, but for most people they will either not want to put in the effort (because such gameplay is tedious, arduous and not fun) or they will find it too hard to do because the level of coordination required is too high to use the class with any modicum of efficiency.
As such, you can give the fade all the buffs and breaks you want, but that will only reward the BETTER players and make the fade more deadly in the hands of those who have higher skills. The fade needs to be easier to USE, not less likely to die.
Forced reliance on using two weapons AND a requirement to fast switch weapons in combat is a lot to put on an average user's plate. When you consider most HL users run with stock configs (other than perhaps a rebound key or two) then we also have to realise that they don't have fast weapons switching. So imnagine playing fade, switching from blink to swipe using the number keys and needing to hit enter, or using the scroll wheel and needing to click to select the weapon. That extra second means extre grief for average users.
If people don't see that a forced reliance on two weapons makes the fade overly difficult, then I don't know what else to say.
It's not the two weapons part that makes it difficult imo. No-one complains about leap-biting or stomp-goring/devouring being overly difficult and they are just as required as blink-swiping.
The cost of the fade, especially when compared to the cost of the onos, makes people believe it should be strong. In fact, it is only as strong as the player wielding it. This is not a bad thing, the only problem with it is that low skilled players are nigh on worthless if they go fade.
While I'm posting Savant, I feel I should say that your idea for changes to the control method would actually make it more difficult to control the fade. I have written many scripts to try and make blink-swiping easier and I tried an implementation of your idea myself. I was better off with lastinv, you do not have enough control over WHEN you swipe which is just as critical as any aspect of fading.
Edit: I also find it quite funny how you appear to believe that because your posts are longer than everyone else's that they contain more logic and truth in them.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
edited March 2005
In response to Savant:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You wouldn't need to be in contact with a marine at all, you just need to be in range of hitting them with a swipe. The ability to get yourself in range of the marine is NO DIFFERENT than it is with the fade as it stands now.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except that with your idea, you would be moving extremely quickly until you release the attack button and you'd always have to blink before being able to swipe. So the easiest way to use it would be to blink directly into the marine using him as a buffer and release to swipe.
The only other alternative would be to release the button at precisely the right moment to deliver your swipe as you swing past, which would require extremely good timing.
Circle strafing, then delivering your hit would be impossible, unless you keep a key dedicated to swiping. Let's assume that Slot 1 is swipe and 2 is blink/swipe (presumably the swipe of blink swipe would be free, otherwise it would be just as difficult for a person to judge the energy required to swipe. At least the pause from switching gives a newbie enough time to build up the energy to attack.
But that's just my first point...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm sorry, but I can't see any way to leave the fade 'as is' and somehow make it easier to use. We can't have it both ways. There will have to be compromises made, and I think that if it does make it a bit harder for more skilled players to 'pull off' the attack they desire, then I would rather put the load on them since they are far more likely to adapt to it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've already posted 4 options for making the fade more conducive to newbies/intermediate players off the top of my head. There's a solid argument to be made that if weapon switching is the root of your problems, then you should stop playing FPS games. (You in a generalised sense, not you personally. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->) Skulks, Lerks and Oni all place a big emphasis on weapon switching.
In fact, every role in NS places an emphasis on hitting the various number/slot keys on a frequent basis. So do beat 'em ups. Hell, I'm pushed to think of a single real-time competetive game where some degree of rapid key pressing <i>isn't</i> important.
Most people can manage 35 words per minute typing. I can do 60-80 at a push. That's with around 97% accuracy. That's 10+ keypresses per second, all in a specific sequence that's reactive to real time input. So don't tell me someone can't manage to switch between 2 slots with practice. Stephen Hawkins could manage that. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Perhaps you think this is like leap or charge, it is not. There is no 'cycle' and no minimum period one has to blink. Press attack and you start to blink, release attack and you stop blinking and take a swipe.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It <b>has</b> to have a cycle time. Otherwise you just script or manually tap the button repeatedly to execute 5 swipes in 5 frames. Without a cyclic rate, you could write a script that would allow you to walk through an entire heavy train within 40 frames. (Incidentally, something similar happened with leap in a pre 1.0 version. It was awesome. You did 20 or so damage per frame. With a decent framerate you could leap through 3-4 HAs. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
If you are suggesting that to re-initiate a blink cancels the attack, then you add a complexity just as bad, if not worse than the current weapon switching, since players would need to learn the time it takes before swipe lands. Newer players would either miss entirely due to that attack not taking place, or end up hanging around even longer.
As a side note, changing blink to function like this would encourage players to blink into marines to make their swipe land. I have one word to say with regards to that.
Shotgun.
For those who don't get it:
Providing the player is capable of looking at the fade as he comes towards you to blink swipe, he is deader than disco. It would encourage learner fades to actually line up the shotgunners target for him. All he needs is to press Mouse 1 and it's goodnight Kharaa.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
edited March 2005
<!--QuoteBegin-Mintman+Mar 25 2005, 11:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mintman @ Mar 25 2005, 11:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Edit: I also find it quite funny how you appear to believe that because your posts are longer than everyone else's that they contain more logic and truth in them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This remark is utterly unnecessary and it devalues everything else you say, which is a shame, because up until that moment, I felt you were trying to make an intelligent point. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Insults just make it look like you have a personal axe to grind. Surely the conviction of being right is enough?
<!--QuoteBegin-Mintman+Mar 25 2005, 05:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mintman @ Mar 25 2005, 05:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find it quite funny how you appear to believe that because your posts are longer than everyone else's that they contain more logic and truth in them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Actually, I have no such belief, I write what I feel and I don't consider my views/opinions to be any more/less valid than anyone else's. We all have our opinions, and we are all entitled to our opinions. If you feel the need to criticize the length of my posts then I believe that reflects poorly on you. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's not the two weapons part that makes it difficult imo. No-one complains about leap-biting or stomp-goring/devouring being overly difficult and they are just as required as blink-swiping.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->People don't complain about 'leap-biting' and such because they don't do it. When on public servers it's are that I hear leap being used in battle, I usually only hear it being used to zip across the map. You can play as skulk without ever having to leap-bite, and it won't make the class unplayable to you. However, you CAN'T play the fade without blink-swipe, and that is a key point of contention in my opinion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The cost of the fade, especially when compared to the cost of the onos, makes people believe it should be strong. In fact, it is only as strong as the player wielding it. This is not a bad thing, the only problem with it is that low skilled players are nigh on worthless if they go fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I disagree. While I don't think a poorly skilled player should be able to automatically 'own' as soon as they evolve upwards, I do think that evoling to a higher evolution should make a player stronger.
Look at the HMG. If you drop a poorly skilled player an HMG, that player's aim won't get any better because of it. Right? OK. However, the simple act of dropping that HMG to this player DOUBLES the damage they can do with every bullet. So even if they have poor aim, they are STILL doing twice as much damage as they did with the LMG.
With the fade that isn't the case at all. Aside from the fact that a fade swipe only does 5 more damage than a skulk bite, the higher fade health/armor means nothing if the player is unable to control it and/or get kills. Many people often stay as skulk because they get MORE kills with it than with the fade.
I don't care if people don't like my idea, but ANY solution to the problem with the fade will HAVE to address the issue of the MANDATORY need to fast switch weapons in order to survive and get kills.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Mar 25 2005, 06:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Mar 25 2005, 06:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There's a solid argument to be made that if weapon switching is the root of your problems, then you should stop playing FPS games. (You in a generalised sense, not you personally. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->) Skulks, Lerks and Oni all place a big emphasis on weapon switching.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'll have to respectfuly disagree with you here. While weapon switching is a part of the game, most people who play the game tend to stick with a primary weapon <b>DURING</b> combat. Sure they may switch weapons, but when a person is working the 4 directional keys AND pressing jump AND moving their mouse AND pressing fire, then each additional task you place on them certainly won't make gameplay any easier.
In every other aline//marine class in NS, none of them REQUIRE that a person fast switch weapons in battle as a mandatory measure. The fade is an exception, and it never used to be that way.
With that in mind, I had another thought with regard to the fade...
Let's change the fade so that it could operate as a HYBRID class. Let me explain.
The fade would evolve into a lifeform that looks as it does now, but that would run on all four legs, instead on on two legs. This fade would run slightly faster than the skulk, and would have the same attack as it does now. (swipe for 80 damage)
The difference is that this fade would NOT have access to the other weapon slots when on all fours. To have access to those weapons it would need to 'stand', perhaps by pressing the USE key. (the key is arbitrary - it could be put on the menu or such) Once the use key is pressed, there would be a one second 'transition' period from all fours to hind legs. Once on hind legs the fade would act and operate EXACTLY as it does now.
Some additional points:
-There would be a health/armor 'bonus' when in all fours mode, which would give the fade a better chance to escape a battle zone alive. -The fade would have to be motionless to switch modes, much like evolving, so one could not 'run-switch' and then use blink to get away. (if one second is not enough, we make it two - the time must make it so that there is no real chance a person can change modes in battle) -The fade would evolve onto all fours, and then a person would select to goi onto two legs if they desired it. Users who didn't know otherwise would just play the class like a skulk.
This is rough, so don't start picking it apart just because you like fade the way it is. The concept can be altered to address any balance issues. The big key is that 'average' players could use the fade, and not have something very hard to play. If they had redemption they might even survive should they miscalculate the time needed to get away. Although carapace might actually be useful here.
There are ways we can take away the need to weapon switch without markedly impacting competitive play.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
edited March 2005
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'll have to respectfuly disagree with you here. While weapon switching is a part of the game, most people who play the game tend to stick with a primary weapon DURING combat. Sure they may switch weapons, but when a person is working the 4 directional keys AND pressing jump AND moving their mouse AND pressing fire, then each additional task you place on them certainly won't make gameplay any easier.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You still haven't addressed all my comments citing real world examples justifying why weapons switching is not an issue. You need to before I'm going to give your line of reasoning more credibility.
Re: Doggystyle mode above.
There already exists such a mode, which increases speed, reduces target profile and is available at the touch of a button.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
I'm a bit late on the discussion here, but I'll add my little bit.
After playing the lerk for ages, I noticed 2 things about the fade that I thought made it a difficult class to play after using the agile lerk. The first thing is the adrenaline management required for both. The second thing is how the fade feels like a flying brick while blinking. I think both of these are what combine to make the fade very difficult for the novice to intermediate player to use.
The skill curve comes from learning how to use less adrenaline, yet actually move faster. If you watch good fades, they flick the mouse upward to blink, getting as much airtime as possible while still moving forward, then glide and bunnyhop as they land to maximize speed and save adrenaline. This is why the fade is so difficult to use, having to conserve adrenaline while moving great distances while having the agility to land in front of marines. Often you'll see new fades blink right past marines and never get in a swipe until they simply walk up to the marine (gg walker fades).
In reality I think all of the alien classes are so different from the default FPS type that it really is difficult to balance them out. I personally feel the lerk has a higher skill curve than the fade, as no one has ever really capped out the skill level of what the lerk can do. The fade has simply been considered the main unit for so long that it is overemphasized sometimes.
Comments
In regard to competitive play, we could make it so that when there are no hives the 'blinkswipe' weapon turns into a 'swipe' weapon. That should address your concern of the never-ending game at zero hives. Fair enough?
We need to make compromises here, and I think the competitive players should be willing to make a small compromise so long as it doesn't significantly impact competitive play.
Will taking out a res node be more work? That depends on what you call work. Instead of pressing and holding your fire button, you would have to tap your fire button. I don't think that's too hard.... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Let's try and find a solution instead of finding more problems... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Regards,
Savant
And, no. Just, no. Making people hold down the attack button to blink is incredibly stupid, because it completely takes away the possibility for air control, blinking in different directions, etc. Unless of course you drastically cut the adrenaline usage, in which case uber fades won't even have to worry about conserving adrenaline, so they'll just be harder to kill.
I'm still confused why it's SO BAD that one alien class is off limits to new players. JPs are completely useless to new players; they'll just get stuck on the ceiling, waste their fuel, and die to a skulk. Commanding is off limits to new players; should we make commanding easier as well? It's really not that big of a deal that only people who have practiced can fade, seriously. It's not like it's the only class where you can have any fun. Leave the fade alone already. There is stuff in NS that people of all skill levels can do to help the team and have fun, fading just happens to be something not everyone can do.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let's try and find a solution instead of finding more problems<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or you can just admit that there is no problem. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Without good fades, marines are more or less guaranteed a win.
At least most people have experience of playing RTS games. Besides which, players can at least attempt to command from the start.
The same cannot be said for our favourite high speed, high maneouverability, melee class alien. The situation is exacerbated by problems with geometry, framerate and the fact that you have to wait 5 minutes per try. Most newbies get owned instantly, which is not conducive to a "fun" experience. Even people with a moderate amount of practice time under their belt die fairly swiftly.
Then it's just a matter of slowly waiting for the marines to come to your hive, which is, in itself, fairly tedious.
My difficulty comes from the incredibly high speed of the blink, the obstacle filled environments, lag when attempting to blink, the unintuitive range of swipe and the constant threat of instantaneous death.
There's no doubt that learning to control the fade is extremely rewarding, it's just that it's extremely frustrating to get there and most players won't bother.
>_>
<_<
<!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
high speed of blink: slow blink down and make the fade invisible. A cross between 3.0's blink and the original blink, except it's still a movement ability, not a teleport
obstacle-filled environments: not gonna change. NS's maps are beautiful, and mappers aren't going to redo maps because they make things difficult for fades (except of course silly map mistakes like the invisible walls in vent hive on hera, which are still there for some reason).
lag when attempting to blink: Nothing much the devs can do to fix this. Maybe the slower, invisible blink would help
Unintuitive range of swipe: Yes, I suppose a bigger swipe range would make more sense. Right now it seems the skulk's mouth is longer than the fade's arms.
Constant threat of imminent death: You could say the same for the onos. If high lifeforms don't feel threatened whenever they're around marines, that means they don't have to worry about them, which means they're fairly unkillable. Not a good thing. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'd rather not change the fade at all, but if it <u>has</u> to be changed, invisible blink and larger swipe range are what I'd suggest.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And, no. Just, no. Making people hold down the attack button to blink is incredibly stupid, because it completely takes away the possibility for air control, blinking in different directions, etc. Unless of course you drastically cut the adrenaline usage, in which case uber fades won't even have to worry about conserving adrenaline, so they'll just be harder to kill. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->These are all issues that can be addressed if my suggestion was implemented. I didn't address every possible variance since that is something that can be done as things progress, the fact is that my IDEA gives people the ability to use the class in a manner that would allow for more people to play that class on public servers. This improves the game's "playability" and makes it that much more user friendly. The status quo is not an option here, and just 'leaving the game as it is' will guarantee that NS will never improve and never reach the next level. (IE, Source) Maybe that's what you want, but it's not what I want.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm still confused why it's SO BAD that one alien class is off limits to new players. ... It's really not that big of a deal that only people who have practiced can fade, seriously.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->The problem is not that the class is off limits to 'new' players, (which this isn't just about new players, there are PLENTY of people who play all the time that don't play fade because of the difficulty/effort involved) this is about a class that is 'off-limits' to some players yet is CRUCIAL to alien gameplay. If the fade wasn't so important to the alien game, then we wouldn't be having this debate.
Weapon switching is only ONE aspect of the problem we have with the fade. I'm trying to look for small simple solutions that can improve individual aspects, which when combined, can improve an average user's ability to play the fade.
Regards,
Savant
>_>
<_<
<!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
A lifefrom that hovers no less...
<_<
>_>
<!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<span style='color:red'>*note* This thread is not to turn into ANY form of scripting vs non scripting. This is just a <i>similar</i> example to demonstrate why I believe Savants suggestiong doesn't work well.</span>
Scripted counter part?
<!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->
alias +blinky "slot2; +attack"
alias -blinky "-attack; slot1; +attack; -attack"
bind mouse1 +blinky
<!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
If you go ahead and play with this, you will find yourself swiping after each blink, unless you have no adrenaline left. If you had to get out of a hairy situation, the extra swipe might drain your adrenaline to the point where you could not get out. It takes the choice away as to when you decide, or if you decide, to use a specific weapon.
Now I know the above isnt *exactly* how you are suggesting the change, but I think its close enouph for a comparison. Combining the two attacks just takes away the control to the fade, making it much more difficult to use and learn IMHO.
More user friendly? If you can't play the fade, there are 4 other classes available. The fade may be tough to play, but sporing from a vent is both helpful for the team and not as skill-intensive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Okay, how long does it take to take out a res tower with a fade? I'd say roughly 45 seconds. You want to stand in one place tapping a button for 45 seconds? My finger would get pretty tired. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Oh boo hoo... you're kidding right? You spend an entire game 'tapping' buttons, and you're saying it would tiring to take out a res node because you would have to tap your finger on the fire button while standing still? If tapping buttons is tiring for you, then perhaps you should reconsider whether gaming is right for you... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But never do you have to tap buttons in exactly the same rhythm for 45 seconds. Tap...tap...tap...tap. You can't keep that up without making a mistake for that long. They rhythm is necessary, and it's also what will make swiping down any building incredibly annoying for a fade. Just a small mistake, and he'll do a little blink. Possibly setting off a mine killing the skulk next to him. Imagine if the only way to bite was to press a button that, if you pushed for just a fraction of a second too long, would send you flying in a leap. That's just a flat-out stupid control setup. Besides, half of the fun of fading is flying around, mashing your blink/swipe/meta bound keys. It's more like you're piloting the fade than just playing it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And, no. Just, no. Making people hold down the attack button to blink is incredibly stupid, because it completely takes away the possibility for air control, blinking in different directions, etc. Unless of course you drastically cut the adrenaline usage, in which case uber fades won't even have to worry about conserving adrenaline, so they'll just be harder to kill. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->These are all issues that can be addressed if my suggestion was implemented. I didn't address every possible variance since that is something that can be done as things progress, the fact is that my IDEA gives people the ability to use the class in a manner that would allow for more people to play that class on public servers. This improves the game's "playability" and makes it that much more user friendly. The status quo is not an option here, and just 'leaving the game as it is' will guarantee that NS will never improve and never reach the next level. (IE, Source) Maybe that's what you want, but it's not what I want.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, how exactly would you tackle the issue of not being able to blink in multiple directions in midair, keeping in mind that you have to hold blink in order to blink, while maintaining the current adrenaline usage? You can't. But if you tone down the adrenaline consumption, you'll have people who never even come close to running out of energy. The best fades can already do this, and they make no mistakes. Do you want fades who <u>do</u> make mistakes to be as powerful?
Also, I'm interested in hearing the logic behind the statement "If we don't change the fade, NS will never make it to Source." It sounds to me like you're getting overly wrapped up in your own importance, and in the importance of this topic.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm still confused why it's SO BAD that one alien class is off limits to new players. ... It's really not that big of a deal that only people who have practiced can fade, seriously.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->The problem is not that the class is off limits to 'new' players, (which this isn't just about new players, there are PLENTY of people who play all the time that don't play fade because of the difficulty/effort involved) this is about a class that is 'off-limits' to some players yet is CRUCIAL to alien gameplay. If the fade wasn't so important to the alien game, then we wouldn't be having this debate.
Weapon switching is only ONE aspect of the problem we have with the fade. I'm trying to look for small simple solutions that can improve individual aspects, which when combined, can improve an average user's ability to play the fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In case you missed Grendel's post, it is not the weapon switching that makes the fade difficult to play. If we implemented your suggestion, it would just kill the current way to play fade, AND it wouldn't make it any easier for new players to play. Furthermore, quick weapon switching is a vital part of ALL lifeforms. Blink-swipe-meta. Xeno-leap-bite. Spore-umbra-bite-umbra. Stomp-devour-stomp. It's a necessary frickin skill. Learn it, use it, love it.
Also, in your search to fix alien gameplay as a whole, you've completely focused on the fade as the problem, instead of trying to fix the parts of the game that make the fade THE deciding factor in games. In case you haven't noticed, skulks and lerks are quite enough in 3.0 to hold the marines off until the second hive goes up. The death of the first fade no longer results in cries of "gg". Maybe the second or third fade, but then again the failure of the 2nd or 3rd shotty or siege rushes also result in cries of "gg", which is how it's supposed to be. So, once again, changing the fade is unnecessary.
<span style='color:red'>*note* This thread is not to turn into ANY form of scripting vs non scripting. This is just a <i>similar</i> example to demonstrate why I believe Savants suggestiong doesn't work well.</span>
Scripted counter part?
<!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->
alias +blinky "slot2; +attack"
alias -blinky "-attack; slot1; +attack; -attack"
bind mouse1 +blinky
<!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
If you go ahead and play with this, you will find yourself swiping after each blink, unless you have no adrenaline left. If you had to get out of a hairy situation, the extra swipe might drain your adrenaline to the point where you could not get out. It takes the choice away as to when you decide, or if you decide, to use a specific weapon.
Now I know the above isnt *exactly* how you are suggesting the change, but I think its close enouph for a comparison. Combining the two attacks just takes away the control to the fade, making it much more difficult to use and learn IMHO. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Blink doesn't nessicarily HAVE to be the adreniline hog it is. The only reason it works that way is because it is nessicary when the thing acts like a jet engine blast. If the only method of swiping would be to release blink then blink could be tweaked to use very little adrenaline while held, after all, without an active swipe ability you would have to blink in and out for every attack anyways.
While I agree with the general sentiment of this thread, I do not agree with your proposed change.
<s>It's a waste of time because I can play the fade fine now.</s>
It would require drastic changes to the basic workings of blink. The requirement of holding the attack button to blink-swipe would be extremely wasteful of energy; it would force a severe reduction in the energy cost of blink. This, however, would lead to possible abuse of the lowered energy cost by tapping the attack button and thereby avoiding any real energy cost. This would have to be prevented; merely weakening it might still lead to experts using blink in a completely different way than average players. The ultimate result, then, is to transform the blink into a simple point-and-hold-mouse1 movement ability. All or almost all possibilities for skill in maneuvering oneself and conserving energy would be lost.
While there may be better ways to solve the above problems, I cannot see them. Without a major reduction in blink's energy cost, holding the attack key would be completely unviable, and we would be back where we started. If tapping the attack key to conserve energy were not made unviable, we would have experts and average players using the blink ability in completely different ways. This would greatly steepen the transition from good fade to expert, and I doubt many people want that. Then, with the blink now a simple point-and-hold-mouse1 movement ability, the skill curve of the fade starts to plateau at the region of 'decent fade'.
TBH I've seen a soar in the use of lerks - celerity lerk takes very little skill to use effectively (yet is still lethal in the hands of the skilled) and is very intuitive to use.
Lerk is of course cheaper, easily replaced, and while not <i>essential</i> to the game, can certainly be a contributing factor.
Fades, as they stand, ARE essential to the game (Lerks are good but versus HA you've got to be kidding).
I don't like the idea of combining blink and swipe, I find it hard to imagine how it work ingame, other than some kind of superpowered leap. Considering blink is hard enough to aim as is, adding a swipe on the end and trying to use it to kill sounds crazy.
a) It would require you to terminate the blink whilst in contact with a marine. That would require just as much, if not more timing than the current blink. Consider how difficult it is to use charge
b) It reduces user control, which is never desirable in any game and would penalise better players more
c) It would presumably need to cycle before you could blink again, which makes it potentially even <b>more</b> likely to get the user killed.
<span style='color:yellow'><b>It seems at this point that it is inevitable that the thread is going to head in the direction of I&S. As people are posting suggestions as to what they would do to the Fade to make it more useful in the hands of the non-1337, I would be interested to see which of these alternatives people would prefer:</b></span>
<span style='color:green'>a) Give the Fade the ability to see marine levels of damage (imagine KharaaVision but using Green/Yellow/Red colouration). This would allow the fade to pick its targets better. It would also hopefully give players a better understanding of how to compose their attack runs.
b) Buff HP, but drop damage per swipe. This would both necessitate more attack runs (more practice for newbies) whilst giving the Fade a better chance to get out alive. It would also prevent the Fade from instagibbing stock marines as soon as it got focus.
c) Drop the cost of fades, but also drop their damage or HP/Armour or possibly both. This has the advantages of b), plus it also means that players will be more likely to try fading.
d) Increase swipe range, but decrease the ROF. This would hopefully reduce the temptation to hang around for "just one more hit" (melee addiction <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ). It would make hitting people easier, but at the trade off that you get less shots.</span>
Frankly, the more I read the thread, the more I am reminded of how much the game <i>(in my opinon)</i> could desparately do with a new engine and a fresh design without the current design legacy. But that's a totally different thread. ^_^
Feel free to post your own ideas. I'm sure you will. Though <b>it would help to give a general idea of preferences if people stated if they'd rather see of a), b), c) or d).</b> Also, please note that the objective is not to uniformly make the fade easier to play, simply to make it more useful without a degree from the University of Pwn.
Bear in mind that total reworkings aren't going to happen, except possibly Tank's blink mod and that's because he's doing the coding. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
With those two changed, the fade would be so infinately easyer to use, but also deadly in the right hands.
1) New lifeform at similar tech level, but played in a more traditional FPS control scheme. Allows godly fading for the experienced and gives an alternative for newer players who don't want to feel useless.
2) Separate keys for blink and swipe (similarly leap and bite). No weapons changing needed. No blink+swipe combo. (Blink, leap, and charge are functionally similar to the "sprint" key found in many FPS games and people seem to be able to handle that.) Fairly simple to code key to do specific "attack" based on lifeform.
3) Make onos more then just a siege unit. There's a reason highly skilled players prefer the cheaper fade over the more costly onos. (Personally, I'd suggest making redemption actually work. Again. Of course, that hurts combat, but that's a separate issue.)
EDIT: Previous post was made while I slowly typed. I think tanks blink should be put in no matter what other changes happen.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i like suggestion d) the most. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Cheapen it, then make it a get in, smack once, get out.
D has the unfortunate side effect of making structures slightly harder to take down, but electricity could use a boost anyway, and C handles any imbalance from a more powerful electrified RT. (Not to mention it increases the relative usefulness of the Onos in taking structures apart.)
Beyond this, I'm curious what the experts think might happen if the momentum from blink was taken away? Ie, when you let go, you stop. This would tend to prevent extended flights and would make the blink a little easier to control, but what other effects might be expected from it?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i like suggestion d) the most. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFE
Especially when you consider that the fades "claws?" are rather mantis like.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i like suggestion d) the most. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFE
Especially when you consider that the fades "claws?" are rather mantis like. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would also weaken focus fades by a small degree.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->a) It would require you to terminate the blink whilst in contact with a marine. That would require just as much, if not more timing than the current blink. Consider how difficult it is to use charge<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->You wouldn't need to be in contact with a marine at all, you just need to be in range of hitting them with a swipe. The ability to get yourself in range of the marine is <b>NO DIFFERENT</b> than it is with the fade as it stands now. The only difference is that with the ade now, you have to get in range of a marine, THEN change weapons, THEN attack the marine. All this while the marine is hopping around like a madman. In my opinion the latter is a LOT harder to pull off. If we combine the two, when you are in range of the marine, you let go of attack and you immediately have swiped at the marine.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->b) It reduces user control, which is never desirable in any game and would penalise better players more<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'm sorry, but I can't see any way to leave the fade 'as is' and somehow make it easier to use. We can't have it both ways. There will have to be compromises made, and I think that if it does make it a bit harder for more skilled players to 'pull off' the attack they desire, then I would rather put the load on them since they are far more likely to adapt to it.
For the lesser skilled, it would be easier to control since it would be tailored to allow the user to control the direction of the blink while moving. Just as with the lerk, when you are travelling in air you turn your mouse and your player will turn. If it is still too hard to control then perhaps slow the blink speed a bit. Keep in mind that blink is hard to control now, so this can't be any worse that what we have.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->c) It would presumably need to cycle before you could blink again, which makes it potentially even <b>more</b> likely to get the user killed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Perhaps you think this is like leap or charge, it is not. There is no 'cycle' and no minimum period one has to blink. Press attack and you start to blink, release attack and you stop blinking and take a swipe.
While your suggestions all have merit, they do nothing to make using the fade any easier to play. At present I see the apex of the fade skill issue is the mandatory need for a fade to use blink <b>THEN</b> switch to another weapon to attack <b>THEN</b> switch back to blink to vacate the combat zone - all done within a very short period of time.
I'm sorry, but for most people they will either not want to put in the effort (because such gameplay is tedious, arduous and not fun) or they will find it too hard to do because the level of coordination required is too high to use the class with any modicum of efficiency.
As such, you can give the fade all the buffs and breaks you want, but that will only reward the BETTER players and make the fade more deadly in the hands of those who have higher skills. The fade needs to be easier to USE, not less likely to die.
Forced reliance on using two weapons AND a requirement to fast switch weapons in combat is a lot to put on an average user's plate. When you consider most HL users run with stock configs (other than perhaps a rebound key or two) then we also have to realise that they don't have fast weapons switching. So imnagine playing fade, switching from blink to swipe using the number keys and needing to hit enter, or using the scroll wheel and needing to click to select the weapon. That extra second means extre grief for average users.
If people don't see that a forced reliance on two weapons makes the fade overly difficult, then I don't know what else to say.
Regards,
Savant
The cost of the fade, especially when compared to the cost of the onos, makes people believe it should be strong. In fact, it is only as strong as the player wielding it. This is not a bad thing, the only problem with it is that low skilled players are nigh on worthless if they go fade.
While I'm posting Savant, I feel I should say that your idea for changes to the control method would actually make it more difficult to control the fade. I have written many scripts to try and make blink-swiping easier and I tried an implementation of your idea myself. I was better off with lastinv, you do not have enough control over WHEN you swipe which is just as critical as any aspect of fading.
Edit: I also find it quite funny how you appear to believe that because your posts are longer than everyone else's that they contain more logic and truth in them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You wouldn't need to be in contact with a marine at all, you just need to be in range of hitting them with a swipe. The ability to get yourself in range of the marine is NO DIFFERENT than it is with the fade as it stands now.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except that with your idea, you would be moving extremely quickly until you release the attack button and you'd always have to blink before being able to swipe. So the easiest way to use it would be to blink directly into the marine using him as a buffer and release to swipe.
The only other alternative would be to release the button at precisely the right moment to deliver your swipe as you swing past, which would require extremely good timing.
Circle strafing, then delivering your hit would be impossible, unless you keep a key dedicated to swiping. Let's assume that Slot 1 is swipe and 2 is blink/swipe (presumably the swipe of blink swipe would be free, otherwise it would be just as difficult for a person to judge the energy required to swipe. At least the pause from switching gives a newbie enough time to build up the energy to attack.
But that's just my first point...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm sorry, but I can't see any way to leave the fade 'as is' and somehow make it easier to use. We can't have it both ways. There will have to be compromises made, and I think that if it does make it a bit harder for more skilled players to 'pull off' the attack they desire, then I would rather put the load on them since they are far more likely to adapt to it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've already posted 4 options for making the fade more conducive to newbies/intermediate players off the top of my head. There's a solid argument to be made that if weapon switching is the root of your problems, then you should stop playing FPS games. (You in a generalised sense, not you personally. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->) Skulks, Lerks and Oni all place a big emphasis on weapon switching.
In fact, every role in NS places an emphasis on hitting the various number/slot keys on a frequent basis. So do beat 'em ups. Hell, I'm pushed to think of a single real-time competetive game where some degree of rapid key pressing <i>isn't</i> important.
Most people can manage 35 words per minute typing. I can do 60-80 at a push. That's with around 97% accuracy. That's 10+ keypresses per second, all in a specific sequence that's reactive to real time input. So don't tell me someone can't manage to switch between 2 slots with practice. Stephen Hawkins could manage that. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Perhaps you think this is like leap or charge, it is not. There is no 'cycle' and no minimum period one has to blink. Press attack and you start to blink, release attack and you stop blinking and take a swipe.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It <b>has</b> to have a cycle time. Otherwise you just script or manually tap the button repeatedly to execute 5 swipes in 5 frames. Without a cyclic rate, you could write a script that would allow you to walk through an entire heavy train within 40 frames. (Incidentally, something similar happened with leap in a pre 1.0 version. It was awesome. You did 20 or so damage per frame. With a decent framerate you could leap through 3-4 HAs. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
If you are suggesting that to re-initiate a blink cancels the attack, then you add a complexity just as bad, if not worse than the current weapon switching, since players would need to learn the time it takes before swipe lands. Newer players would either miss entirely due to that attack not taking place, or end up hanging around even longer.
As a side note, changing blink to function like this would encourage players to blink into marines to make their swipe land. I have one word to say with regards to that.
Shotgun.
For those who don't get it:
Providing the player is capable of looking at the fade as he comes towards you to blink swipe, he is deader than disco. It would encourage learner fades to actually line up the shotgunners target for him. All he needs is to press Mouse 1 and it's goodnight Kharaa.
[Edited pronouns so it actually made sense >_<]
This remark is utterly unnecessary and it devalues everything else you say, which is a shame, because up until that moment, I felt you were trying to make an intelligent point. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Insults just make it look like you have a personal axe to grind. Surely the conviction of being right is enough?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's not the two weapons part that makes it difficult imo. No-one complains about leap-biting or stomp-goring/devouring being overly difficult and they are just as required as blink-swiping.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->People don't complain about 'leap-biting' and such because they don't do it. When on public servers it's are that I hear leap being used in battle, I usually only hear it being used to zip across the map. You can play as skulk without ever having to leap-bite, and it won't make the class unplayable to you. However, you CAN'T play the fade without blink-swipe, and that is a key point of contention in my opinion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The cost of the fade, especially when compared to the cost of the onos, makes people believe it should be strong. In fact, it is only as strong as the player wielding it. This is not a bad thing, the only problem with it is that low skilled players are nigh on worthless if they go fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I disagree. While I don't think a poorly skilled player should be able to automatically 'own' as soon as they evolve upwards, I do think that evoling to a higher evolution should make a player stronger.
Look at the HMG. If you drop a poorly skilled player an HMG, that player's aim won't get any better because of it. Right? OK. However, the simple act of dropping that HMG to this player DOUBLES the damage they can do with every bullet. So even if they have poor aim, they are STILL doing twice as much damage as they did with the LMG.
With the fade that isn't the case at all. Aside from the fact that a fade swipe only does 5 more damage than a skulk bite, the higher fade health/armor means nothing if the player is unable to control it and/or get kills. Many people often stay as skulk because they get MORE kills with it than with the fade.
I don't care if people don't like my idea, but ANY solution to the problem with the fade will HAVE to address the issue of the MANDATORY need to fast switch weapons in order to survive and get kills.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Mar 25 2005, 06:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Mar 25 2005, 06:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There's a solid argument to be made that if weapon switching is the root of your problems, then you should stop playing FPS games. (You in a generalised sense, not you personally. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->) Skulks, Lerks and Oni all place a big emphasis on weapon switching.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'll have to respectfuly disagree with you here. While weapon switching is a part of the game, most people who play the game tend to stick with a primary weapon <b>DURING</b> combat. Sure they may switch weapons, but when a person is working the 4 directional keys AND pressing jump AND moving their mouse AND pressing fire, then each additional task you place on them certainly won't make gameplay any easier.
In every other aline//marine class in NS, none of them REQUIRE that a person fast switch weapons in battle as a mandatory measure. The fade is an exception, and it never used to be that way.
With that in mind, I had another thought with regard to the fade...
Let's change the fade so that it could operate as a HYBRID class. Let me explain.
The fade would evolve into a lifeform that looks as it does now, but that would run on all four legs, instead on on two legs. This fade would run slightly faster than the skulk, and would have the same attack as it does now. (swipe for 80 damage)
The difference is that this fade would NOT have access to the other weapon slots when on all fours. To have access to those weapons it would need to 'stand', perhaps by pressing the USE key. (the key is arbitrary - it could be put on the menu or such) Once the use key is pressed, there would be a one second 'transition' period from all fours to hind legs. Once on hind legs the fade would act and operate EXACTLY as it does now.
Some additional points:
-There would be a health/armor 'bonus' when in all fours mode, which would give the fade a better chance to escape a battle zone alive.
-The fade would have to be motionless to switch modes, much like evolving, so one could not 'run-switch' and then use blink to get away. (if one second is not enough, we make it two - the time must make it so that there is no real chance a person can change modes in battle)
-The fade would evolve onto all fours, and then a person would select to goi onto two legs if they desired it. Users who didn't know otherwise would just play the class like a skulk.
This is rough, so don't start picking it apart just because you like fade the way it is. The concept can be altered to address any balance issues. The big key is that 'average' players could use the fade, and not have something very hard to play. If they had redemption they might even survive should they miscalculate the time needed to get away. Although carapace might actually be useful here.
There are ways we can take away the need to weapon switch without markedly impacting competitive play.
Regards,
Savant
You still haven't addressed all my comments citing real world examples justifying why weapons switching is not an issue. You need to before I'm going to give your line of reasoning more credibility.
Re: Doggystyle mode above.
There already exists such a mode, which increases speed, reduces target profile and is available at the touch of a button.
+jump.
After playing the lerk for ages, I noticed 2 things about the fade that I thought made it a difficult class to play after using the agile lerk. The first thing is the adrenaline management required for both. The second thing is how the fade feels like a flying brick while blinking. I think both of these are what combine to make the fade very difficult for the novice to intermediate player to use.
The skill curve comes from learning how to use less adrenaline, yet actually move faster. If you watch good fades, they flick the mouse upward to blink, getting as much airtime as possible while still moving forward, then glide and bunnyhop as they land to maximize speed and save adrenaline. This is why the fade is so difficult to use, having to conserve adrenaline while moving great distances while having the agility to land in front of marines. Often you'll see new fades blink right past marines and never get in a swipe until they simply walk up to the marine (gg walker fades).
In reality I think all of the alien classes are so different from the default FPS type that it really is difficult to balance them out. I personally feel the lerk has a higher skill curve than the fade, as no one has ever really capped out the skill level of what the lerk can do. The fade has simply been considered the main unit for so long that it is overemphasized sometimes.