How about making blink more like walking? I dont know about everyone else but b/c of my fps its like trying to maneuver a 10 wheeled truck. Make its strafe easier to use while blinking and give it more horizontal movement during blink i think that may solve the problem... but if ur talking super newbies well then it wont matter b/c they wont even know what blink is or for that matter that aliens have 2 diffrent weapon slots lol.
<!--QuoteBegin-InquisitiveIdiot+Mar 23 2005, 01:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (InquisitiveIdiot @ Mar 23 2005, 01:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> All of your "balance the fade" suggestions are ridiculous. You want to make it more newbie friendly by <i>reducing</i> it's hp and armor? What the hell!
How about this: increase it's hp/armor/<b>swipe radius</b> to the point where newbies CAN three-swipe against two newbie shotgunners and win. Then reduce blink <i>speed</i> until clan play is balanced again. Newbies get a fade that doesn't die from one mistake. Clanners get a slower, tougher fade, more suitable for direct assaults but still far from a tank when fighting marines who can aim. Everyone wins, except the poor marines. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah... lets not remove skill from the game please...
Grendel: I think that you way over-complicate situational awareness. Pretty much all it is is being careful when there is anything more than 1 LMG marine with good aim. Don't go in alone, wait for skulks, or more fades, or wait until the marines split up. That's all there is to it =\
shrug
Leave the Fade how it is, you don't see recoil in CS reduced because it's too hard for newbies to control. Cmon. It's not supposed to be super easy and I don't think Fading effectively right now is as super hard as you guys make it out to be =\
BTW Grendel I wasn't saying that I call Fades who die in pubs retards or anything. People always talk about pubbers harassing Fades who die quickly in pubs, but I almost never see it...
Right now it is hard for a single 1 hive fade to take out an lmg marine if the marine can aim. If you give him the chance to unload his lmg and pistol you could be sitting at give or take 150 hp. This means one shotgun blast or one pistol clip and you are dead meat. 2 hive fades are killing machines though and with focus they are damn near unstoppable. I love the 3.0 celerity focus fades that regen health 30% faster. So damn hard to kill.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Mar 23 2005, 02:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Mar 23 2005, 02:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Grendel: I think that you way over-complicate situational awareness. Pretty much all it is is being careful when there is anything more than 1 LMG marine with good aim. Don't go in alone, wait for skulks, or more fades, or wait until the marines split up. That's all there is to it =\ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oddly, this may be one case where your status as a member of exigent invalidates your comments, as I tend to think you simply don't have the frame of reference to understand lower-skilled play anymore. For folks like you, understanding the maps is fairly instinctual. If you hear that marines are in a certain place, you not only already know the way to reach them from where you are, you have a reasonable estimate of how they'll be deployed, which areas you need to look out for, and possible snags you have to be careful of.
Without a lot of time devoted to this kind of play, most pubbers can't.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Leave the Fade how it is, you don't see recoil in CS reduced because it's too hard for newbies to control. Cmon. It's not supposed to be super easy and I don't think Fading effectively right now is as super hard as you guys make it out to be =\ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If what you say here is true, then why is it that you get people actively denying the opportunity to fade?
As for CS and recoil, that's a bad comparison because CS isn't as class based as NS. If you can't handle recoil, you can't handle it, but you can still shoot and you haven't wasted your teams efforts. It has about as much effect on dooming your team as not being able to aim.
If you can't fade, you've wasted 50 resources that could have been better used for your team, and your team is probably doomed unless they have someone else around who *can* fade.
Now, moving to Grendel's point, while you can attribute it all to situational awareness, that applies to any alien life form in varying degrees, and to me strikes as a bit of a cop-out. A way of saying "We can't nail down exactly what it is but there's something wrong"
The problem is that the fade is balanced on the razor's edge of usefulness. One careless mistake and you're likely eliminated. No mistakes at all and you're near godlike.
When looked at in those terms, the easy way to adjust it seems fairly obvious to me. Boost HP, lower damage. However, that doesn't really feel satisfying. I'd prefer to boost hp, but drop momentum from the blink.
<!--QuoteBegin-Kwil+Mar 23 2005, 02:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ Mar 23 2005, 02:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, moving to Grendel's point, while you can attribute it all to situational awareness, that applies to any alien life form in varying degrees, and to me strikes as a bit of a cop-out. A way of saying "We can't nail down exactly what it is but there's something wrong"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As Kwil said, situational awareness is very important when doing anything in ns (marine, jetpack, skulk, onos, whatever). A large part of marining is just keeping track of the skulks and standing in intelligent places. If someone doubts the importance of intelligence and experience in NS, the varying efficacies of onoseses should make the point. The onos has almost no skill involved. Few rooms are big enough for it to bunny hop, and it can stomp anything that might otherwise give it trouble. There are not really any movement tricks or feats of aim required. Yet, some players do much more as onos than others.
Again, playing smart is important for everything, not just fades. Marines, skulks, lerks, and onoses can bite off more than they can chew just as easily as fades can.
Skulks die all the time anyway, so no one cares if they do something stupid. Lerks can feel effective (whether or not they are actually being effective) by sitting in a vent and sporing, or sitting on the hive and umbraing.
A fade can attack a group of marines with shotguns and stand a chance of living. A fade can stand in base attacking a building and not be killed if a marine comes up behind him, as a lerk has to worry about. A fade can draw fire, and survive it, while skulks attack the distracted marines. Basically, the fade is the first unit that the aliens can get that is actually able to respond to a decently-sized group of marines. A lerk stands too great a chance of dying, and a skulk will likely make little impact.
Thus, the aliens need fades (an onos could fill this role, but, as mentioned, escaping is key for fade--onoses suck at escaping....also, they cost 75 res). The fact that everyone talks about the learning curve for fades does not mean that it is particularly bad for fades. It is bad for all classes in NS. Fades stick out because they are so integral to the alien team.
Marines generally have more res nodes than aliens (I don't think I've ever seen a timelimit hit in tournament mode go to aliens). Marine resources go into one pool. If the marines have 5 RTs and need a new jp/shotgun, they need wait only 24 seconds for the 30 res. If the aliens have 5 RTs (a rather unlikely occurence, unless the game is effectively over, in which case it's irrelevant) and 8 players, and a fade dies, that player must wait 320 seconds to get 50 res. Obviously this is mitigated by the fact that other players will likely be close to res for fade by this time, and the dead fade probably already had some res, either from RTs or RFK. 320 seconds is only 40 seconds short of the time it takes for two hives to go up, and that is with 5 RTs. 5 RTs generally constitutes control of over half the map.
Aliens' killing, for most of the game, is done by skulks and fades. Skulks can run in, attack marines, not land a bite, die, respawn, and try again. Fades, assuming that they know the map and how to blink and swipe and everything, can run in, attack marines, make some error, die, and now the alien team is out a fade. When an alien team only has a couple of fades for a fair bit of time (they often lose at least one or two RTs meanwhile, delaying further fades), this hurts, a lot.
I'm not saying any of this is good or bad. I'm only saying that it seems the emphasis on good fading comes from the res and class system in NS. Only the higher lifeforms can be very effective against marines, the aliens have rather restricted access to those lifeforms, and can lose them for a long time via small mistakes.
The Alien in both games is made of tissue paper, does not suffer damage well, is far too easily killed by flamethrowers....... for all its weaknesses people STILL use it, its just not the choice of the newbie. It has a vastly different playstyle to Marine or Pred, and indeed needs such a different playstyle in order to survive.
Its learned by experience, you learn to hit and run because anyone who gets a bead on you is very likely to kill you.
I agree with Dirm and Gren that its more a psychological aspect of Fade. Fade is very much touted as a powerhouse, and inexperienced players equate powerhouse with "takes tons of damage but dishes out more". Fade does NOT take tons of damage.
How to fix? Force people to HAVE to hit and run. The idea of a health nerf would force people to hit and run, but if thats such a problem for high level play then there's not really many more solutions.
You can't touch the cost, because making it cheaper (read: more disposable) would only mean much MUCH faster fades, making average play and higher very very difficult.
You could try boosting health, but that doesn't encourage people to hit and run, it encourages them to stand and take damage in the pursuit of a swipe.
Energy changes... tbh blink's only problem is AIMING it properly. Besides which, adren gives you more than enough energy as fade. At higher level play people are switching to meta while they move, so energy is even less of a consideration.
Map changes.. helps people who can't aim their blink, but thats probably going to be hell for the mappers to fix up, IF it can be done.
I think that covers pretty much most of the physical changes.. the only other solution is a change to the mental attitude. That means altering any manuals, altering the tooltips, putting a sticky up somewhere about the fade's proper use, etc.
That way anyone who reads the manual has half a clue, and anyone who reads the forums has a bit of education too.
CO doesn't help people practice Classic fading skills. Yes, you get people who know how to use a fade that use CO as a training ground, but people who start off in CO run the risk of taking several upgrades to turn the fade into a smackmatch player, going hit for hit with the enemy as opposed to hitting and RUNNING. Once they hit classic, and learn they cant have so many upgrades, they run into problems. As soon as they first try Fade, they will usually peg it because they can't smack match, and then their team will go ape on the player and tell them how nub they are. Player won't touch fade in classic for a while, and will start giving "I cant fade" excuses. Yet at the same time he could be a half decent fade player in CO by taking upgrades to suit HIS style, not the Fade's style.
Its a touch depressing, people are losing out on the fade class because the pressure is high, there's no real way ingame for players to be encouraged to hit and run, and because CO is so radically different to Classic, players can't use it to get an insight into the Classic fade. Yes, if they KNOW how to fade in classic, they can refine it in CO, but if they don't know how to fade in Classic in the first place...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just for the sake of discussion, what if we made the fade a 'range' fighter? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dunno, I remember the old lerk, people just used range in order to camp vents, as opposed to coordinated teamwork. Umbra was a rare appearance on the pub circuit. AR to slot 1... doesn't that mean Focus AR?
Metab to slot 4.. not much of an endgame ability, and since the fade is hit n run it sort of relies on the ability to heal itself rather than have to blink back to hive every few minutes.
In terms of game balance, perhaps boosting the Onos, or Lerk, might make up for the Fade. People are more than happy to Lerk or Onos, so it would be a roundabout way of fixing the midgame for lesser players. Onos is pretty poor endgame wise when marines are all farmed up, Lerk is nasty in the hands of good players but it also has the added advantage of being cheaper, and thus less likely for people to be screamed at if they die.
It seems like a bit of a cop out, avoiding the Fade entirely, but it means people can pick other higher lifeforms, still contribute, and once they get to reading the forums they can go about learning to hit n run properly. I don't think most physical fixes are going to work purely because what needs to change is the player mindset, their attitude to the fade.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<b>Observation</b>
Whilst it might help players get better at being more cautious and flexible in the long run (not to mention the benefit of having SOF), the increased diversity of chambers being dropped now results in newer Fade players having to learn to play the role without anything but passive regen.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Mar 21 2005, 11:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Mar 21 2005, 11:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You guys keep making me think that the human race has a chance. Damn you with your unexpected displays of open mindedness. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Becuase the survival of mankind depends on a single thread on an internet game's forums. The world is saved.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin-SentrySteve+Mar 24 2005, 05:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SentrySteve @ Mar 24 2005, 05:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Mar 21 2005, 11:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Mar 21 2005, 11:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You guys keep making me think that the human race has a chance. Damn you with your unexpected displays of open mindedness. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Becuase the survival of mankind depends on a single thread on an internet game's forums. The world is saved. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Your constant attention to what I say warms me Steve. It's nice to know that I'm so important to you.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Mar 24 2005, 04:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Mar 24 2005, 04:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Your constant attention to what I say warms me Steve. It's nice to know that I'm so important to you. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Reply</b>
I will learn to play nicer with Grendel or bad things might happen
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
I think we may need to notice something here.
Note how all the clanners generally say Fading doesn't take much skill, that its merely a matter of practicing it for a little bit? And how all the pubbers are saying "No, you're wrong" to that(or a form of)?
Meh i still think my idea would help but since u guys seem to not really pay attention to it i wont bother anymore <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
This thread seems to be in dire need of some wise words written by Nemesis Zero:
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This game was not designed for you and only you. Whether you like to play one or ten hours a day, whether you like it for the social aspect, the strategic element, the quirky movement, the action, the competition, the large maps or the sound of Lani Minella's voice, your preference is not the sole center of our attention. We are trying to create a game for as many people as possible here. This involves making compromises. Not always something we like to do, but it's necessary.
Bluntly put, if you think that your style of playing is the only one that matters and that it should be supported to the exclusion of all else, your feedback is pretty much worthless to us. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think people need to stop saying that 'fade is fine' just because it is fine for THEM. As Grendel and I agree, this is about the GAME and how it impacts those who play it, and not whether or not your playing style would be impacted by a change. This also isn't about "taking the skill out of the game" if we make the fade easier to play.
The fade is far too critical an alien class to be 'unplayable' by many people that find fade too hard or too much effort. If the fade wasn't as important to the middle game, then it wouldn't really matter. For example, if it was the lerk that had the issue, then people could dismiss it since it is weak enough to not have much of an impact on the game if it isn't present. The fade, on the other hand, is a strong class to the point where it can have a marked impact if it isn't present.
With every alien and marine class in the game, they should ALL be playable by ANY player, regardless of their skill level. The level of skill a person has should only impact how WELL they can play a given class, not *IF* they can play it.
Look at the skulk...
The skulk is relatively easy to play, and even a newcomer can understand the basics pretty fast. However, a higher skilled player can still play a skulk 'better' than a lower skilled player, even though the class is easy to play.
Next we have the Onos, which as the most powerful alien in the game is STILL easier to play than the fade. Much like a 'fat skulk', a player can run around and kill without the need for fancy keyboard skills.
However, the fade is another story. Not only does a new player need to understand that they NEED to use blink to play that class, they also have to coordinate using TWO 'weapons' simultaneously since blink doesn't cause damage.
Many people who play HL and related mods use the default setup, and don't have fast-switching. This means they have to blink, then select the weapon and press enter, or use the scroll-wheel to change weapons. All this while in battle, AND with the need to be in and out of a combat area in 2 seconds or they are dead... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Yeah, I think that's asking a bit much of average players. The fade is not user friendly, and I agree with Grendel in that this is a problem.
Before people respond, please read the quote from Nemesis Zero again. It bears repeating and really helps to put things into perspective.
<!--QuoteBegin-Savant+Mar 24 2005, 04:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 24 2005, 04:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Many people who play HL and related mods use the default setup, and don't have fast-switching. This means they have to blink, then select the weapon and press enter, or use the scroll-wheel to change weapons. All this while in battle, AND with the need to be in and out of a combat area in 2 seconds or they are dead... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You're definately right about this one. Something that would help things alot would be to set hud_fastswitch 1 by default.
Other than that, please stop trying to add credibility to your posts by quoting authorities, it's a lame trick. Kk?
<!--QuoteBegin-Savant+Mar 24 2005, 04:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 24 2005, 04:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->stuff<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If someone wants to get better, they can. They can go on the official website and see links to NSLearn. They can go to the Fade article and learn to become a better fade.
Sure, there are newbies in the game. But they can become better at the game. You can't cater to a small minority of players who are new to the game and don't know how to play yet.
then read my suggestion b/c i think it will help both newb and seasoned players ESPECIALLY NEWBIES... being able to strafe will help a newbie maneuver and maneuvering will help with survival.
<!--QuoteBegin-MrMojo+Mar 24 2005, 10:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrMojo @ Mar 24 2005, 10:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If someone wants to get better, they can. They can go on the official website and see links to NSLearn. They can go to the Fade article and learn to become a better fade.
Sure, there are newbies in the game. But they can become better at the game. You can't cater to a small minority of players who are new to the game and don't know how to play yet. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Why yes, yes they can. The problem is that the return on investment is TOO #@$@#$ LOW for many players so they DON'T practice for the lengthy amount of time it would take most of them to become a good fade.
Because they can't play a good fade, and because the fade is so crucial, NS on the alien team simply isn't as fun for them. So they have two options:
1) Try to crowd into the marine door before the team is full (yes, we see this frequently).
2) Play a DIFFERENT MOD that they enjoy.
Hey--guess what. NS isn't exactly growing by leaps and bounds. It's pretty much sitting right where it was when 1.0 came out. (Keep in mind that we have the same number of players, but half the servers are playing CO!)
Keeping the status quo may not kill NS off, but it sure won't make it grow.
<!--QuoteBegin-comrade+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (comrade)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->good balanced game = healthy clanscene = more coverage = more interest from tournaments = more incentive to get good = more players = healthy clanscene<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Church+Mar 23 2005, 03:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Mar 23 2005, 03:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you can't take out one lmg marine...you have problems.
Even one-hive fades with focus are powerhouses. At two hives all alien lifeforms become major threats (gorges are major threats to buildings). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not talking about whether or not it is easy. I can put a lot of bullets into a fade before he can hit me once assuming I see him coming. I'm simply stating that 1 marine with an lmg can do a lot of damage to a fade by himself so many marines in one spot, or shotgun/hmg marines can destroy a fade without a problem if the fade screws up or isn't very good.
And I've seen you fade before, it's almost as funny as watching me fade.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ahnteis+Mar 24 2005, 06:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ahnteis @ Mar 24 2005, 06:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because they can't play a good fade, and because the fade is so crucial, NS on the alien team simply isn't as fun for them. So they have two options:
1) Try to crowd into the marine door before the team is full (yes, we see this frequently).
2) Play a DIFFERENT MOD that they enjoy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yuno, your first observation is one of those things that we (as players) often notice, but we see it so often that we forget about it.
On public servers I <b>often</b> see people stacking the marine portal, and what is significant is that when many people are saying that aliens are too strong people are STILL stacking the marine portal! It's gotta tell you something if people stack a team portal with the opinion that it is the weaker of the two teams.
It's not just this version either, no matter what version we have released, the marine portal always ends up stacked. For me I rarely play marine because I want to balance the teams whenever possible.
Sure it's not as easy to play aliens as it is to play marines, but I do think we should at least TRY to make it as easy as possible for people to play on either side.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ahnteis+Mar 24 2005, 06:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ahnteis @ Mar 24 2005, 06:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hey--guess what. NS isn't exactly growing by leaps and bounds. It's pretty much sitting right where it was when 1.0 came out. (Keep in mind that we have the same number of players, but half the servers are playing CO!) Keeping the status quo may not kill NS off, but it sure won't make it grow.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yeah, I've noticed this too, and based on numbers from a year ago, player totals are actually down slightly. This gradual decline won't be reversed until/unless we can make NS easier to play. All the comments in the world that people should 'practise' means squat if a person feels that the game is too hard to begin with.
The issue with the fade is just a symptom of a bigger problem. Nevertheless, I would like to see the fade reworked to make it more user-friendly.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-MrGunner+Mar 24 2005, 06:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrGunner @ Mar 24 2005, 06:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Church+Mar 23 2005, 03:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Mar 23 2005, 03:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you can't take out one lmg marine...you have problems.
Even one-hive fades with focus are powerhouses. At two hives all alien lifeforms become major threats (gorges are major threats to buildings). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not talking about whether or not it is easy. I can put a lot of bullets into a fade before he can hit me once assuming I see him coming. I'm simply stating that 1 marine with an lmg can do a lot of damage to a fade by himself so many marines in one spot, or shotgun/hmg marines can destroy a fade without a problem if the fade screws up or isn't very good.
And I've seen you fade before, it's almost as funny as watching me fade. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'll be the first to admit my Fading isn't top notch. I have trouble with landing the swipe, but at least I know enough to not get killed, and I wouldn't go up against more than 2 lmgers by myself because I know my own limitations.
As to Fades getting destroyed by many marines...only if they block the Fade, and that doesn't happen much on pubs (which is why I can pwn on pub servers as Fade)
I've seen fades die in open hives to getting hit simultaneously by 3 marines (gg dirm lolz). Blocking really only buys you a second or two but if you hit the fade hard enough he should be dead without or without a block. As a fade/lerk I'm more worried most of the time about spread out marines because if I lose my armor taking down one marine another could be between me and the hive and I'm dead meat unless I see him first.
Many valid points have been named, but lets look for solutions, that do not require to rebalance the game.
For example: Blinking with a single keystroke will shurely help many players to blink/swipe more effectifely. AvP2 had a single bind for their aliens leap ability.
One main reason why fading is hard is the fact that you have to switch weapons often. Give players the ability to swipe with mouse1, blink with mouse 2, meta with e and you will see better fades on pubs with nearly no impact on the top noch players.
This config makes it faster for the normal fade to switch weapons, his client side animations play faster (making it easier for the user to tell what attack he has), and he just has to hit q to toggle between blink and swipe, and hit c whenever he wants to metabolize once he hits two hives.
Mousewheel up is for the tiny blinks to move around the map. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well i modified this setup so that i can blink with mouse 2 metab with mouse 3.
It is helpfull in direct combat when fast weapon switching is everything, although i wont recomend using it to move around the map. Well, once i get fully used to it i will let you know about my improvements <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
@Faskalia It overpower the fade. It's like : adding the "I win button"...
It's already too easy for scripters. The guy you see blink and swipe in air even if there is nothing to kill... you see?
EDIT: tuintje, tjosan -No sound of metabolize of course. But a clear sound of swipe. -Not the "lastinv" kind. I know this "technique". -The guy flee using swipe too...
<!--QuoteBegin-UncleCrunch!+Mar 25 2005, 05:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (UncleCrunch! @ Mar 25 2005, 05:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> @Faskalia It overpower the fade. It's like : adding the "I win button"...
It's already too easy for scripters. The guy you see blink and swipe in air even if there is nothing to kill... you see? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That would be "metabolize".
Ok I'm not much of a fader but I just practised a bit with fade and use 1 button for last used weapon, and I was impressed, I killed lots of people without too many problems especially with upgrades just using the blink swipe technique <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Gees I got into this one late. I'm not going to read the whole 10 pages of thread, so I apologize in advance if I end up rehashing what someone else has already said. This is a response too grendels post and a statement of my own opinion.
The way I see it, the current rediculous dependance on the fade is due to two extreamly important factors. The fade is the middle ground between 2 alien roles and as such plays in incredibly nessicary part of NS as it stands. IMHO this is the cornerstone of the current problems with NS, because the fade is the centerpoint between two roles it is more valuable and nessicary then any other evolution.
The two roles the fade rides between are the role of fast reconisance unit and the role of beefy heavy weapons counter. Both the lerk and the skulk can move around the map pretty fast and counter a marine threat pretty much anywhere from almost wherever they spawn, the problem with these units is they have nearly no stopping power. Skulks and lerks are great for taking out scouts and rambos, and they make quick work of ninjas if they show themselfs, but they are all but useless against any type of coordinated marine attack, and this only become exacerbated when marines get heavier weapons.
Fades are the only "low level" reconosence style unit that acctually can feed the marines thier ****. Any rambo nearly regardless of thier weapon can easily be slaughtered by a good fade. Granted most of us have soloed fades before on a once in a blue moon basis, but this is in large part due to the problems that grendal outlined in his first post. The fade is just about nonintuitive enough that good pub fades are generally a long shot worse in terms of skill then good clan fades. The skill peak of your average pub fade is signifigantly below the skill peak of your high level clan fade.
Weather or not THAT in itself is acctually problematic is arguable, obviously it frustrates the clan vs pub balance, but there is always more then one way to fix that type of problem. The problem I would rather fix is the insane dependance on fades that alien teams currently display at the expense of lerks and onos.
As I outlined before, the fade is the only unit which can reliably patrol the map while at the same time stopping large groups of well equipped marines with any semblance of effectiveness. The onos is too slow to serve an effective reconesance role, although unarguably is stopping power is greater then the fades. But simply the fact that the fade HAS stopping power makes it irreplaceable as a nessicary unit of play. There are several things that could be tryed as a fix, but we most likely won't see a signifigant change in the insanely high value of the fade until one or the other of those two roles is if not removed, at least made much more effectively counterable by the marines.
Getting back to possible changes, I was thinking... What if we COMBINE blink and swipe? Here is what I am thinking...
You are a fade, and your weapon one slot is called something else now. (we can decide on a name later) This weapon has two functions... When you press down and HOLD the attack button, you will blink. You continue to blink as long as you hold down the attack button and you have adrenaline. Once you let go of the attack button, a swipe will occur. So if you want to multiple swipe, you have to tap the fire button instead of pressing and holding it. (tapping the fire button would cause a tiny blink, but as long as you are looking at what you want to attack you shouldn't move and your attack will occur without incident - we could make it so that there would be a tiny delay before blink started, say a half second, which is about how long it takes a good person to weapon switch) The weapon 2 slot would still be a 'blink' weapon, which would be able to be used for travelling long distances. (since there would be no adrenaline hit for using a swipe AND blink)
The pros of this system would be that it would be FAR easier for new players to use. Sure they would find it odd at first, but with no weapon switching this would be far easier to play than as it stands. Just press and hold to move around, then when you are within range of a marine, let go of the attack button to swipe.
This would likely not impact clanners to a significant extent. The only downside would be that they wouldn't have the ability to use the swipe individually, but that really shouldn't matter so long as blink is still available. It will mean that a clanner that wants to use the 'old' slot 2 blink will have to tap their mouse button when they are using slot 1 for attack purposes alone. I'm sure they could manage that if they so desired.
We may need to adjust adrenaline use for the weapon 1 attack, but it shouldn't be too hard to balance.
Thoughts? (replies that say "It's a waste of time" because they can play the fade fine now are <b>NOT</b> welcome - constructive replies only please. )
Comments
How about this: increase it's hp/armor/<b>swipe radius</b> to the point where newbies CAN three-swipe against two newbie shotgunners and win. Then reduce blink <i>speed</i> until clan play is balanced again. Newbies get a fade that doesn't die from one mistake. Clanners get a slower, tougher fade, more suitable for direct assaults but still far from a tank when fighting marines who can aim. Everyone wins, except the poor marines. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah... lets not remove skill from the game please...
Grendel: I think that you way over-complicate situational awareness. Pretty much all it is is being careful when there is anything more than 1 LMG marine with good aim. Don't go in alone, wait for skulks, or more fades, or wait until the marines split up. That's all there is to it =\
shrug
Leave the Fade how it is, you don't see recoil in CS reduced because it's too hard for newbies to control. Cmon. It's not supposed to be super easy and I don't think Fading effectively right now is as super hard as you guys make it out to be =\
BTW Grendel I wasn't saying that I call Fades who die in pubs retards or anything. People always talk about pubbers harassing Fades who die quickly in pubs, but I almost never see it...
Even one-hive fades with focus are powerhouses. At two hives all alien lifeforms become major threats (gorges are major threats to buildings).
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oddly, this may be one case where your status as a member of exigent invalidates your comments, as I tend to think you simply don't have the frame of reference to understand lower-skilled play anymore. For folks like you, understanding the maps is fairly instinctual. If you hear that marines are in a certain place, you not only already know the way to reach them from where you are, you have a reasonable estimate of how they'll be deployed, which areas you need to look out for, and possible snags you have to be careful of.
Without a lot of time devoted to this kind of play, most pubbers can't.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Leave the Fade how it is, you don't see recoil in CS reduced because it's too hard for newbies to control. Cmon. It's not supposed to be super easy and I don't think Fading effectively right now is as super hard as you guys make it out to be =\
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If what you say here is true, then why is it that you get people actively denying the opportunity to fade?
As for CS and recoil, that's a bad comparison because CS isn't as class based as NS. If you can't handle recoil, you can't handle it, but you can still shoot and you haven't wasted your teams efforts. It has about as much effect on dooming your team as not being able to aim.
If you can't fade, you've wasted 50 resources that could have been better used for your team, and your team is probably doomed unless they have someone else around who *can* fade.
Now, moving to Grendel's point, while you can attribute it all to situational awareness, that applies to any alien life form in varying degrees, and to me strikes as a bit of a cop-out. A way of saying "We can't nail down exactly what it is but there's something wrong"
The problem is that the fade is balanced on the razor's edge of usefulness. One careless mistake and you're likely eliminated. No mistakes at all and you're near godlike.
When looked at in those terms, the easy way to adjust it seems fairly obvious to me. Boost HP, lower damage. However, that doesn't really feel satisfying. I'd prefer to boost hp, but drop momentum from the blink.
As Kwil said, situational awareness is very important when doing anything in ns (marine, jetpack, skulk, onos, whatever). A large part of marining is just keeping track of the skulks and standing in intelligent places. If someone doubts the importance of intelligence and experience in NS, the varying efficacies of onoseses should make the point. The onos has almost no skill involved. Few rooms are big enough for it to bunny hop, and it can stomp anything that might otherwise give it trouble. There are not really any movement tricks or feats of aim required. Yet, some players do much more as onos than others.
Again, playing smart is important for everything, not just fades. Marines, skulks, lerks, and onoses can bite off more than they can chew just as easily as fades can.
Skulks die all the time anyway, so no one cares if they do something stupid. Lerks can feel effective (whether or not they are actually being effective) by sitting in a vent and sporing, or sitting on the hive and umbraing.
A fade can attack a group of marines with shotguns and stand a chance of living. A fade can stand in base attacking a building and not be killed if a marine comes up behind him, as a lerk has to worry about. A fade can draw fire, and survive it, while skulks attack the distracted marines. Basically, the fade is the first unit that the aliens can get that is actually able to respond to a decently-sized group of marines. A lerk stands too great a chance of dying, and a skulk will likely make little impact.
Thus, the aliens need fades (an onos could fill this role, but, as mentioned, escaping is key for fade--onoses suck at escaping....also, they cost 75 res). The fact that everyone talks about the learning curve for fades does not mean that it is particularly bad for fades. It is bad for all classes in NS. Fades stick out because they are so integral to the alien team.
Marines generally have more res nodes than aliens (I don't think I've ever seen a timelimit hit in tournament mode go to aliens). Marine resources go into one pool. If the marines have 5 RTs and need a new jp/shotgun, they need wait only 24 seconds for the 30 res. If the aliens have 5 RTs (a rather unlikely occurence, unless the game is effectively over, in which case it's irrelevant) and 8 players, and a fade dies, that player must wait 320 seconds to get 50 res. Obviously this is mitigated by the fact that other players will likely be close to res for fade by this time, and the dead fade probably already had some res, either from RTs or RFK. 320 seconds is only 40 seconds short of the time it takes for two hives to go up, and that is with 5 RTs. 5 RTs generally constitutes control of over half the map.
Aliens' killing, for most of the game, is done by skulks and fades. Skulks can run in, attack marines, not land a bite, die, respawn, and try again. Fades, assuming that they know the map and how to blink and swipe and everything, can run in, attack marines, make some error, die, and now the alien team is out a fade. When an alien team only has a couple of fades for a fair bit of time (they often lose at least one or two RTs meanwhile, delaying further fades), this hurts, a lot.
I'm not saying any of this is good or bad. I'm only saying that it seems the emphasis on good fading comes from the res and class system in NS. Only the higher lifeforms can be very effective against marines, the aliens have rather restricted access to those lifeforms, and can lose them for a long time via small mistakes.
The Alien in both games is made of tissue paper, does not suffer damage well, is far too easily killed by flamethrowers....... for all its weaknesses people STILL use it, its just not the choice of the newbie. It has a vastly different playstyle to Marine or Pred, and indeed needs such a different playstyle in order to survive.
Its learned by experience, you learn to hit and run because anyone who gets a bead on you is very likely to kill you.
I agree with Dirm and Gren that its more a psychological aspect of Fade. Fade is very much touted as a powerhouse, and inexperienced players equate powerhouse with "takes tons of damage but dishes out more". Fade does NOT take tons of damage.
How to fix? Force people to HAVE to hit and run. The idea of a health nerf would force people to hit and run, but if thats such a problem for high level play then there's not really many more solutions.
You can't touch the cost, because making it cheaper (read: more disposable) would only mean much MUCH faster fades, making average play and higher very very difficult.
You could try boosting health, but that doesn't encourage people to hit and run, it encourages them to stand and take damage in the pursuit of a swipe.
Energy changes... tbh blink's only problem is AIMING it properly. Besides which, adren gives you more than enough energy as fade. At higher level play people are switching to meta while they move, so energy is even less of a consideration.
Map changes.. helps people who can't aim their blink, but thats probably going to be hell for the mappers to fix up, IF it can be done.
I think that covers pretty much most of the physical changes.. the only other solution is a change to the mental attitude. That means altering any manuals, altering the tooltips, putting a sticky up somewhere about the fade's proper use, etc.
That way anyone who reads the manual has half a clue, and anyone who reads the forums has a bit of education too.
CO doesn't help people practice Classic fading skills. Yes, you get people who know how to use a fade that use CO as a training ground, but people who start off in CO run the risk of taking several upgrades to turn the fade into a smackmatch player, going hit for hit with the enemy as opposed to hitting and RUNNING. Once they hit classic, and learn they cant have so many upgrades, they run into problems. As soon as they first try Fade, they will usually peg it because they can't smack match, and then their team will go ape on the player and tell them how nub they are. Player won't touch fade in classic for a while, and will start giving "I cant fade" excuses. Yet at the same time he could be a half decent fade player in CO by taking upgrades to suit HIS style, not the Fade's style.
Its a touch depressing, people are losing out on the fade class because the pressure is high, there's no real way ingame for players to be encouraged to hit and run, and because CO is so radically different to Classic, players can't use it to get an insight into the Classic fade. Yes, if they KNOW how to fade in classic, they can refine it in CO, but if they don't know how to fade in Classic in the first place...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Just for the sake of discussion, what if we made the fade a 'range' fighter?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dunno, I remember the old lerk, people just used range in order to camp vents, as opposed to coordinated teamwork. Umbra was a rare appearance on the pub circuit. AR to slot 1... doesn't that mean Focus AR?
Metab to slot 4.. not much of an endgame ability, and since the fade is hit n run it sort of relies on the ability to heal itself rather than have to blink back to hive every few minutes.
In terms of game balance, perhaps boosting the Onos, or Lerk, might make up for the Fade. People are more than happy to Lerk or Onos, so it would be a roundabout way of fixing the midgame for lesser players. Onos is pretty poor endgame wise when marines are all farmed up, Lerk is nasty in the hands of good players but it also has the added advantage of being cheaper, and thus less likely for people to be screamed at if they die.
It seems like a bit of a cop out, avoiding the Fade entirely, but it means people can pick other higher lifeforms, still contribute, and once they get to reading the forums they can go about learning to hit n run properly. I don't think most physical fixes are going to work purely because what needs to change is the player mindset, their attitude to the fade.
BTW Gren, I'm not Savant <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Whilst it might help players get better at being more cautious and flexible in the long run (not to mention the benefit of having SOF), the increased diversity of chambers being dropped now results in newer Fade players having to learn to play the role without anything but passive regen.
Personally, I find this makes fading even harder.
Becuase the survival of mankind depends on a single thread on an internet game's forums. The world is saved.
Becuase the survival of mankind depends on a single thread on an internet game's forums. The world is saved. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your constant attention to what I say warms me Steve. It's nice to know that I'm so important to you.
<b>Reply</b>
I will learn to play nicer with Grendel or bad things might happen
Note how all the clanners generally say Fading doesn't take much skill, that its merely a matter of practicing it for a little bit? And how all the pubbers are saying "No, you're wrong" to that(or a form of)?
Maybe we just need to downplay the fade.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This game was not designed for you and only you. Whether you like to play one or ten hours a day, whether you like it for the social aspect, the strategic element, the quirky movement, the action, the competition, the large maps or the sound of Lani Minella's voice, your preference is not the sole center of our attention. We are trying to create a game for as many people as possible here. This involves making compromises. Not always something we like to do, but it's necessary.
Bluntly put, if you think that your style of playing is the only one that matters and that it should be supported to the exclusion of all else, your feedback is pretty much worthless to us. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think people need to stop saying that 'fade is fine' just because it is fine for THEM. As Grendel and I agree, this is about the GAME and how it impacts those who play it, and not whether or not your playing style would be impacted by a change. This also isn't about "taking the skill out of the game" if we make the fade easier to play.
The fade is far too critical an alien class to be 'unplayable' by many people that find fade too hard or too much effort. If the fade wasn't as important to the middle game, then it wouldn't really matter. For example, if it was the lerk that had the issue, then people could dismiss it since it is weak enough to not have much of an impact on the game if it isn't present. The fade, on the other hand, is a strong class to the point where it can have a marked impact if it isn't present.
With every alien and marine class in the game, they should ALL be playable by ANY player, regardless of their skill level. The level of skill a person has should only impact how WELL they can play a given class, not *IF* they can play it.
Look at the skulk...
The skulk is relatively easy to play, and even a newcomer can understand the basics pretty fast. However, a higher skilled player can still play a skulk 'better' than a lower skilled player, even though the class is easy to play.
Next we have the Onos, which as the most powerful alien in the game is STILL easier to play than the fade. Much like a 'fat skulk', a player can run around and kill without the need for fancy keyboard skills.
However, the fade is another story. Not only does a new player need to understand that they NEED to use blink to play that class, they also have to coordinate using TWO 'weapons' simultaneously since blink doesn't cause damage.
Many people who play HL and related mods use the default setup, and don't have fast-switching. This means they have to blink, then select the weapon and press enter, or use the scroll-wheel to change weapons. All this while in battle, AND with the need to be in and out of a combat area in 2 seconds or they are dead... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Yeah, I think that's asking a bit much of average players. The fade is not user friendly, and I agree with Grendel in that this is a problem.
Before people respond, please read the quote from Nemesis Zero again. It bears repeating and really helps to put things into perspective.
Regards,
Savant
You're definately right about this one. Something that would help things alot would be to set hud_fastswitch 1 by default.
Other than that, please stop trying to add credibility to your posts by quoting authorities, it's a lame trick. Kk?
If someone wants to get better, they can. They can go on the official website and see links to NSLearn. They can go to the Fade article and learn to become a better fade.
Sure, there are newbies in the game. But they can become better at the game. You can't cater to a small minority of players who are new to the game and don't know how to play yet.
Sure, there are newbies in the game. But they can become better at the game. You can't cater to a small minority of players who are new to the game and don't know how to play yet. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why yes, yes they can. The problem is that the return on investment is TOO #@$@#$ LOW for many players so they DON'T practice for the lengthy amount of time it would take most of them to become a good fade.
Because they can't play a good fade, and because the fade is so crucial, NS on the alien team simply isn't as fun for them. So they have two options:
1) Try to crowd into the marine door before the team is full (yes, we see this frequently).
2) Play a DIFFERENT MOD that they enjoy.
Hey--guess what. NS isn't exactly growing by leaps and bounds. It's pretty much sitting right where it was when 1.0 came out. (Keep in mind that we have the same number of players, but half the servers are playing CO!)
Keeping the status quo may not kill NS off, but it sure won't make it grow.
Even one-hive fades with focus are powerhouses. At two hives all alien lifeforms become major threats (gorges are major threats to buildings). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not talking about whether or not it is easy. I can put a lot of bullets into a fade before he can hit me once assuming I see him coming. I'm simply stating that 1 marine with an lmg can do a lot of damage to a fade by himself so many marines in one spot, or shotgun/hmg marines can destroy a fade without a problem if the fade screws up or isn't very good.
And I've seen you fade before, it's almost as funny as watching me fade.
1) Try to crowd into the marine door before the team is full (yes, we see this frequently).
2) Play a DIFFERENT MOD that they enjoy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yuno, your first observation is one of those things that we (as players) often notice, but we see it so often that we forget about it.
On public servers I <b>often</b> see people stacking the marine portal, and what is significant is that when many people are saying that aliens are too strong people are STILL stacking the marine portal! It's gotta tell you something if people stack a team portal with the opinion that it is the weaker of the two teams.
It's not just this version either, no matter what version we have released, the marine portal always ends up stacked. For me I rarely play marine because I want to balance the teams whenever possible.
Sure it's not as easy to play aliens as it is to play marines, but I do think we should at least TRY to make it as easy as possible for people to play on either side.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ahnteis+Mar 24 2005, 06:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ahnteis @ Mar 24 2005, 06:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hey--guess what. NS isn't exactly growing by leaps and bounds. It's pretty much sitting right where it was when 1.0 came out. (Keep in mind that we have the same number of players, but half the servers are playing CO!) Keeping the status quo may not kill NS off, but it sure won't make it grow.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yeah, I've noticed this too, and based on numbers from a year ago, player totals are actually down slightly. This gradual decline won't be reversed until/unless we can make NS easier to play. All the comments in the world that people should 'practise' means squat if a person feels that the game is too hard to begin with.
The issue with the fade is just a symptom of a bigger problem. Nevertheless, I would like to see the fade reworked to make it more user-friendly.
Regards,
Savant
Even one-hive fades with focus are powerhouses. At two hives all alien lifeforms become major threats (gorges are major threats to buildings). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not talking about whether or not it is easy. I can put a lot of bullets into a fade before he can hit me once assuming I see him coming. I'm simply stating that 1 marine with an lmg can do a lot of damage to a fade by himself so many marines in one spot, or shotgun/hmg marines can destroy a fade without a problem if the fade screws up or isn't very good.
And I've seen you fade before, it's almost as funny as watching me fade. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll be the first to admit my Fading isn't top notch. I have trouble with landing the swipe, but at least I know enough to not get killed, and I wouldn't go up against more than 2 lmgers by myself because I know my own limitations.
As to Fades getting destroyed by many marines...only if they block the Fade, and that doesn't happen much on pubs (which is why I can pwn on pub servers as Fade)
For example: Blinking with a single keystroke will shurely help many players to blink/swipe more effectifely. AvP2 had a single bind for their aliens leap ability.
One main reason why fading is hard is the fact that you have to switch weapons often. Give players the ability to swipe with mouse1, blink with mouse 2, meta with e and you will see better fades on pubs with nearly no impact on the top noch players.
hud_fastswitch 1
mwheelup +attack
mwheeldown +jump
*Insert NGEs Fade config here*
This config makes it faster for the normal fade to switch weapons, his client side animations play faster (making it easier for the user to tell what attack he has), and he just has to hit q to toggle between blink and swipe, and hit c whenever he wants to metabolize once he hits two hives.
Mousewheel up is for the tiny blinks to move around the map. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well i modified this setup so that i can blink with mouse 2 metab with mouse 3.
It is helpfull in direct combat when fast weapon switching is everything, although i wont recomend using it to move around the map.
Well, once i get fully used to it i will let you know about my improvements <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It overpower the fade. It's like : adding the "I win button"...
It's already too easy for scripters. The guy you see blink and swipe in air even if there is nothing to kill... you see?
EDIT: tuintje, tjosan
-No sound of metabolize of course. But a clear sound of swipe.
-Not the "lastinv" kind. I know this "technique".
-The guy flee using swipe too...
It overpower the fade. It's like : adding the "I win button"...
It's already too easy for scripters. The guy you see blink and swipe in air even if there is nothing to kill... you see? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be "metabolize".
The way I see it, the current rediculous dependance on the fade is due to two extreamly important factors. The fade is the middle ground between 2 alien roles and as such plays in incredibly nessicary part of NS as it stands. IMHO this is the cornerstone of the current problems with NS, because the fade is the centerpoint between two roles it is more valuable and nessicary then any other evolution.
The two roles the fade rides between are the role of fast reconisance unit and the role of beefy heavy weapons counter. Both the lerk and the skulk can move around the map pretty fast and counter a marine threat pretty much anywhere from almost wherever they spawn, the problem with these units is they have nearly no stopping power. Skulks and lerks are great for taking out scouts and rambos, and they make quick work of ninjas if they show themselfs, but they are all but useless against any type of coordinated marine attack, and this only become exacerbated when marines get heavier weapons.
Fades are the only "low level" reconosence style unit that acctually can feed the marines thier ****. Any rambo nearly regardless of thier weapon can easily be slaughtered by a good fade. Granted most of us have soloed fades before on a once in a blue moon basis, but this is in large part due to the problems that grendal outlined in his first post. The fade is just about nonintuitive enough that good pub fades are generally a long shot worse in terms of skill then good clan fades. The skill peak of your average pub fade is signifigantly below the skill peak of your high level clan fade.
Weather or not THAT in itself is acctually problematic is arguable, obviously it frustrates the clan vs pub balance, but there is always more then one way to fix that type of problem. The problem I would rather fix is the insane dependance on fades that alien teams currently display at the expense of lerks and onos.
As I outlined before, the fade is the only unit which can reliably patrol the map while at the same time stopping large groups of well equipped marines with any semblance of effectiveness. The onos is too slow to serve an effective reconesance role, although unarguably is stopping power is greater then the fades. But simply the fact that the fade HAS stopping power makes it irreplaceable as a nessicary unit of play. There are several things that could be tryed as a fix, but we most likely won't see a signifigant change in the insanely high value of the fade until one or the other of those two roles is if not removed, at least made much more effectively counterable by the marines.
You are a fade, and your weapon one slot is called something else now. (we can decide on a name later) This weapon has two functions... When you press down and HOLD the attack button, you will blink. You continue to blink as long as you hold down the attack button and you have adrenaline. Once you let go of the attack button, a swipe will occur. So if you want to multiple swipe, you have to tap the fire button instead of pressing and holding it. (tapping the fire button would cause a tiny blink, but as long as you are looking at what you want to attack you shouldn't move and your attack will occur without incident - we could make it so that there would be a tiny delay before blink started, say a half second, which is about how long it takes a good person to weapon switch) The weapon 2 slot would still be a 'blink' weapon, which would be able to be used for travelling long distances. (since there would be no adrenaline hit for using a swipe AND blink)
The pros of this system would be that it would be FAR easier for new players to use. Sure they would find it odd at first, but with no weapon switching this would be far easier to play than as it stands. Just press and hold to move around, then when you are within range of a marine, let go of the attack button to swipe.
This would likely not impact clanners to a significant extent. The only downside would be that they wouldn't have the ability to use the swipe individually, but that really shouldn't matter so long as blink is still available. It will mean that a clanner that wants to use the 'old' slot 2 blink will have to tap their mouse button when they are using slot 1 for attack purposes alone. I'm sure they could manage that if they so desired.
We may need to adjust adrenaline use for the weapon 1 attack, but it shouldn't be too hard to balance.
Thoughts? (replies that say "It's a waste of time" because they can play the fade fine now are <b>NOT</b> welcome - constructive replies only please. )
Regards,
Savant