<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marines are less dependant on movement than the fade, which significantly reduces the requisite skill set. Marines also have low damage, rapid fire weapons, which means that the skill progression is pretty linear. As you get better, you hit more times on average. Because your data sample is larger, you get more predictable results and better compensation for error. The shotgun works in the same way, but the rounds are fired simultaneously. Without the spread pattern (i.e. if the shotgun worked like a rail gun), your assertion would be true. But it isn't.
The only exception to this rule is the grenade launcher, which rarely sees use in clan play because it is not a weapon that has a reliable mean damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't true Grendel because lets say you are 40% accurate.
You fire 30 bullets, and kill one skulk. By the time 30 bullets go off, if there were two skulks chances are you'd be dead before 30 bullets fired.
Now say you are 60% accurate. That's only 20 bullets to kill a skulk, and the second skulk who is biting you is now by himself, and with some medspam you can kill him to, at a 60% accuracy rate.
Only a 20% increase, and already you've doubled your kill rate. That's an exponential increase in killing power for marines.
ALL aliens lack this basic exponential skill increase the basic marine has, except for the fade.
Changing the fade in any shape or form indicates a lack of game knowledge if you ask me. By the way, you don't need a good computer to be a good fade, and movement skill in my oppinion is far less difficult to master than aim skill.
Proof of this is how you will see plenty of good fades on pubs rack of a high score, but they go marine and are terrible. Marines have far more to master skill wise, aliens have far more to master teamwork wise, which is where their true power comes from as a result of being able to attack marines at their choosing; in theory the game of numbers is always on their side.
NS balance, IMHO. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Whilst it made me chuckle, it's not really tremendously constructive. If you think my idea is wrong, why not tell me why? I didn't say I was plotting a graph based on hard data. I specifically stated it was simply a visual representational aid. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Once again...its back to the basics.
Where are you getting your data from? Some random pub server at 2am? The NSA Vet server at midday? The number of players as well as the skill of players greaty affects such numbers. In a scrim between two clans, the more skilled side will get the earlygame kills, and then if the more skilled side is halfway decent, Fades wouldnt really matter except to help in the cleanup. The only time that Fades really come to mean anything is when the teams are matched up evenlyish. At that point, it again goes back to whos more skilled, but since neither made decent headway in the earlygame, its truly a tossup as to who will win.
If you need to know what keeps the "skill gap" (quoted for blatant misnomer) alive and well, you need only play NS on a fresh install and try to fade. So many variables configured in the worst possible way for fading - hud_fastswitch 0, default weapon keys, space +jump and it doesn't even launch with -noforcemparms by default.
Theres really no need to make the entire affair any easier, short of fixing the smackingly obvious bits of user unfriendlyness. Especially considering <b>it would take 2 goddamn minutes to write an optimized default config.cfg</b>. I don't see how in the world the Fade is supposedly responsible for NS' horrible, horrible, horrible control schemes.
I agree with saltz that a lot is in your custom cfg.
I disagree with the entire point of this thread. The thesis is that people should be closer to the best players, without having to put in as much effort as the best players.
If you want to see an example of a marine skill curve vs fading ability, get a hold of the demo's of terror vs. BAH last night. Watch mustang after terror starts handing out jetpacks. Watch how well he controls the jp, and watch his shots. Especially when he chases, hunts down, and slays Pr's fade. There <u>MAY</u> not be a better fade than mustang, but there <u>is no better marine.</u>
Mods, forgive me if I seem insulting, but this guy has it coming I think.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you would truthfully like something like that in a game you play on, then go play a MMORPG where the only 'skill' is hitting the right hotkey at the right moment.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->You're using MMORPGs as an example of a genre where time spent is <i>less</i> important? Have you ever actually <i>played</i> one?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Trying to change that is like trying to make the sun rise in the west and set in the east.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Wonderful argument. Truly, the gods of argyamentation have bestowed unto you the greatest of their gifts. "You're wrong, because that's the way it was, is and ever shall be." I stand aside in awe. Come back when you have some rational logic.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->how can you ask that the default Alien class get a BOOST of any sort at two hives?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Because clanners can already bunnyhop, but pubbers can't. Clanners don't NEED the button, so their game isn't affected. If you want to balance for clans play, fine, but don't whine when people suggest steps to take to bring pub play closer to your l33t level.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let me ask another question: Would you give the OK to giving Marines shotguns on spawn after the armory is upgraded? Or having JP/HA being a one-time-drop?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Again, if clanners could already do it and pubbers could not, then <b>yes.</b> How would that be imbalanced?
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Mar 21 2005, 12:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Mar 21 2005, 12:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fade's usually account for a 30% to 70% share of all kills in games. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Skulks usually account for 3% to 97% of all kills in games.
Minstrel_KnightThe truth and nothing but the truth...Join Date: 2002-11-21Member: 9562Banned
<!--QuoteBegin-monopolowa+Mar 21 2005, 11:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (monopolowa @ Mar 21 2005, 11:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And as for fades, (been mentioned before) I would suggest placing a minimum adren level for blink to work (15-20%, subject to tweaking) This wouldn't hurt very good players too much (I know someone will disagree with this), as there's still plenty to blink in, swipe, blink out, but it would help less skilled players stay alive by forcing them to retreat sooner, instead of waiting till the last second then dying on the way out. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Good players use energy conservation scripts or mouse wheel to blink anyway making adrenaline a non issue. This idea would only hurt those who already need help.
<!--QuoteBegin-Router Box+Mar 21 2005, 12:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ Mar 21 2005, 12:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I agree with saltz that a lot is in your custom cfg.
I disagree with the entire point of this thread. The thesis is that people should be closer to the best players, without having to put in as much effort as the best players. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I disagree a bit with your assesment of the thesis.
It's more that people's impact on the game should be closer to the best players relative to the effort they put in.
Currently, the fade provides no noticable increase in impact until a very significant amount of effort has been put in. A moderately skilled player is currently little better than a poorly skilled player when it comes to the fade. However, a well skilled player has a significant increase in the impact they bring to the game over a moderately skilled player as a fade -- I suggest an increase far in excess of how much their actual skill has increased.
<!--QuoteBegin-DuoGodOfDeath+Mar 21 2005, 01:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DuoGodOfDeath @ Mar 21 2005, 01:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In 3.0 Final I find skulks more worry some than fades v.v
But thats just me. Sometimes they absorb bullets and use them for HP or something I dunno. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> haha, so true
I'll tell you right now why clan fades are so much better than pub fades.
Pub fades play most of their fading hours on combat. Clan fades play most of their fading hours in ns. Playing a lvl 10 fade against bad marine shots most of the time will will hurt your game and playing a regen vanilla fade against excellant shots all the time will help it. When i play combat, i don't break the classic upgrade bounds, and then i only upgrade the things i need to keep the aliens from losing. focus for jps ect.
"It's more that people's impact on the game should be closer to the best players relative to the effort they put in."
So the players that have put more time and effort into the game, and consequently are better, deserve thier skill level and the subsequent victories. If thats what you're saying then I agree with you.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Minstrel Knight+Mar 21 2005, 01:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Minstrel Knight @ Mar 21 2005, 01:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-monopolowa+Mar 21 2005, 11:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (monopolowa @ Mar 21 2005, 11:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And as for fades, (been mentioned before) I would suggest placing a minimum adren level for blink to work (15-20%, subject to tweaking) This wouldn't hurt very good players too much (I know someone will disagree with this), as there's still plenty to blink in, swipe, blink out, but it would help less skilled players stay alive by forcing them to retreat sooner, instead of waiting till the last second then dying on the way out. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good players use energy conservation scripts or mouse wheel to blink anyway making adrenaline a non issue. This idea would only hurt those who already need help. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> umm...energy conservation scripts? Huh? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
IF there is one, I'd very much like to see it.
As for using mousewheel, how does that help you conserve adren? the only thing it does ishelp you switch to and from blink, which is good, but anybody can use the mousewheel.
<!--QuoteBegin-SaltzBad+Mar 21 2005, 01:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SaltzBad @ Mar 21 2005, 01:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So many variables configured in the worst possible way for fading - hud_fastswitch 0, default weapon keys, space +jump and it doesn't even launch with -noforcemparms by default. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What is -noforcemparms?
<!--QuoteBegin-Minstrel Knight+Mar 21 2005, 01:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Minstrel Knight @ Mar 21 2005, 01:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-monopolowa+Mar 21 2005, 11:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (monopolowa @ Mar 21 2005, 11:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And as for fades, (been mentioned before) I would suggest placing a minimum adren level for blink to work (15-20%, subject to tweaking) This wouldn't hurt very good players too much (I know someone will disagree with this), as there's still plenty to blink in, swipe, blink out, but it would help less skilled players stay alive by forcing them to retreat sooner, instead of waiting till the last second then dying on the way out. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good players use energy conservation scripts or mouse wheel to blink anyway making adrenaline a non issue. This idea would only hurt those who already need help. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> good players dont use scripts at all (mp_bs 0), and you dont need to hold down the attack key to blink, a simple tap will do just fine to conserve adren
but anyway, good players could easily adapt to this idea, as your comments support. Lesser fades would be hurt at first but should adapt quickly.
I still say that it would help less skilled fades in the long run by forcing them to retreat before they're hurt too badly
<!--QuoteBegin-Router Box+Mar 21 2005, 01:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ Mar 21 2005, 01:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you want to see an example of a marine skill curve vs fading ability, get a hold of the demo's of terror vs. BAH last night. Watch mustang after terror starts handing out jetpacks. Watch how well he controls the jp, and watch his shots. Especially when he chases, hunts down, and slays Pr's fade. There <u>MAY</u> not be a better fade than mustang, but there <u>is no better marine.</u> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Could you post a link to those demos?
<!--QuoteBegin-Church+Mar 21 2005, 02:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Mar 21 2005, 02:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Minstrel Knight+Mar 21 2005, 01:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Minstrel Knight @ Mar 21 2005, 01:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-monopolowa+Mar 21 2005, 11:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (monopolowa @ Mar 21 2005, 11:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And as for fades, (been mentioned before) I would suggest placing a minimum adren level for blink to work (15-20%, subject to tweaking) This wouldn't hurt very good players too much (I know someone will disagree with this), as there's still plenty to blink in, swipe, blink out, but it would help less skilled players stay alive by forcing them to retreat sooner, instead of waiting till the last second then dying on the way out. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good players use energy conservation scripts or mouse wheel to blink anyway making adrenaline a non issue. This idea would only hurt those who already need help. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> umm...energy conservation scripts? Huh? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
IF there is one, I'd very much like to see it.
As for using mousewheel, how does that help you conserve adren? the only thing it does ishelp you switch to and from blink, which is good, but anybody can use the mousewheel. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> alias +quickblink "+attack; wait; -attack;" alias -quickblink ""
as well as the mouse wheel bound to +attack make you use the bare minimum of energy for a little blink, which will carry you a decent distance. HBS uses mwheelup +attack, mwheeldown +jump, so he can blink and bunny hop with the mouse wheel.
So....you need a script to tap blink? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And also, hasn't this problem already been kinda solved? Now that teams are actually getting sensory chambers first sometimes, which are horrible for fades compared to the other chambers (focus is nice, but I'd much rather have celerity or cara, or even regen), the alien game no longer focuses on one uber-fade. The fade isn't any more accessible than it was, it's just that no one cares anymore 'cause they can make an impact in the game as a skulk.
Far too much emphasis is placed on button mashing as an alien in NS (IMHO of course). This has long been a sore point with me, and it affects most notably skulks and fades although onos are also burdened with it to some extent and lerks to a far lesser extent.
To be an effective leaping skulk/blinking fade, you not only have to master movement and aiming skills, you also have to work on your arcade-game button-mashing skills.
For many people, that's just too many things to concentrate on at once. Far better would be a system where you could assign leap/bite/whatever to separate keys/mouse buttons. (This would also help those of us afflicted with some form of DiabloII disease/RSS.)
Most people CAN EVENTUALLY learn these skills. (Someone *will* care, so YES, I can leap/bite just fine on servers with blockscripts on.) On the other hand, is this really a game skill we care about?
Additionally, as has been mentioned the default config is even worse. I learned to leap/bite without fastswitch on. It's a PAIN to: Select leap (key of choice) change weapon (attack) leap (attack) select bite (key of choice) change weapon (attack) bite (attack)
Slightly better, but still a pain is what I currently do: change to leap (key of choice) leap (attack) change to bite (key of choice) bite (attack)
MUCH better is what I currently do on mp_bs 0 servers: leap (key of choice) bite (key of choice)
Blink/swipe is similar.
This simple change would make fading much more approachable to average players while truly l33t players would still retain their edge due to their superior movement and aiming skills.
EDIT: I completely skipped over using the mousewheel to change weapons because that's not even a realistic option in NS. Sure, you can do that and play at a very reasonable way in almost every OTHER game, but not NS.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Mar 21 2005, 03:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Mar 21 2005, 03:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So....you need a script to tap blink? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And also, hasn't this problem already been kinda solved? Now that teams are actually getting sensory chambers first sometimes, which are horrible for fades compared to the other chambers (focus is nice, but I'd much rather have celerity or cara, or even regen), the alien game no longer focuses on one uber-fade. The fade isn't any more accessible than it was, it's just that no one cares anymore 'cause they can make an impact in the game as a skulk. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 1. You do not need a script to tap blink. As previously mentioned you can use your mousewheel. What also was not mentioned is that if you have a sensitive mouse (mx500 or above) you can just tap the mouse and it works fine.
Higher the adren requirements makes it harder for fades and increases the nessesity of mouse wheel or tap blink scripts.
2. Sensory chambers are not bad for fades. Focus is the best upgrade in the game for the fade, if you need an explanation why then just check <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=90300' target='_blank'>here.</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Finally there is the focus fade, quite possibly the best upgrade in the game for the fade. The fade being the best hit and run unit logically benefits from the upgrade that deals the most up-front damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Mar 21 2005, 08:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Mar 21 2005, 08:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Focus is the best upgrade in the game for the fade, if you need an explanation why then just check <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Focus may be the best upgrade for a GOOD fade. For a semi-skilled fade, the lack of adrenaline or carapace may just lead to an early grave. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Fades in the early mid-game are proper. They're the combat lifeform above the Lerk, and the first type out there that can decimate. They're fine.
However, it's near end-game that they're still being used ALOT, which I don't like. I want the Onos to be more of the end-game unit, not the Fade.
I think the problem is that Fades are overused not only because they work, but because the Onos isn't a killing machine like the Fade. If the Onos was worth it's res, then more people would Onos instead of Fade, making there be less Fades in general after the mid-game, where there SHOULD be Fades.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Even the unskilled benefit lots from focus, the upgrade that is too damned good for fades (I want to remove focus tbh. sensory doesn't need it anymore with all the other buffs and general alien buffs) becasue all you need is ONE hit and then you run away. You are shot less because you don't need to stay for a second swipe. That's approximately half a second less the marines have the fire at you.
<!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Mar 21 2005, 02:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Mar 21 2005, 02:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SaltzBad+Mar 21 2005, 01:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SaltzBad @ Mar 21 2005, 01:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So many variables configured in the worst possible way for fading - hud_fastswitch 0, default weapon keys, space +jump and it doesn't even launch with -noforcemparms by default. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What is -noforcemparms? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No mouse acceleration. At least the only way to do it without messing with windows.
<!--QuoteBegin-SnO0Py+Mar 21 2005, 02:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SnO0Py @ Mar 21 2005, 02:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Router Box+Mar 21 2005, 01:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ Mar 21 2005, 01:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you want to see an example of a marine skill curve vs fading ability, get a hold of the demo's of terror vs. BAH last night. Watch mustang after terror starts handing out jetpacks. Watch how well he controls the jp, and watch his shots. Especially when he chases, hunts down, and slays Pr's fade. There <u>MAY</u> not be a better fade than mustang, but there <u>is no better marine.</u> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Could you post a link to those demos? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> go to their site
Funny Gared Jax <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> , sadly this was absolutely true in 1.02 , thank good it still improves.
<i>> How were fades killed or how did they avoid getting killed?</i> Fades get killed whenever marines just STAYED THE HELL TOGETHER and avoided getting killed when attacking large groups alone.
From personal experience, the main reason average-good fades die is that they rush too many marines and get shotgun plowed or blocked. The best fades succeed because they know how to handle these situations 95% of the time, with an escape plan or just realizing what they're getting into. Perhaps then, a way to increase the effectiveness of average fades without giving a huge advantage to the best fades would be to give them some sort of scent of fear type ability. I'm not quite sure how this would be implemented, though; perhaps a sort of alien beacon, maybe a short range scent of fear based on the original sof concept (where the marines have to be damaged). It might end up throwing off balance too much too.
<!--QuoteBegin-Quaunaut+Mar 21 2005, 03:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Quaunaut @ Mar 21 2005, 03:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Is having a lifeform that requires skill such a bad thing? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not at all.
Having a lifeform that requires a great deal of skill to play that is the cornerstone of the alien game is.
So I am going to try and sum up, for myself an others, some ideas being expressed here in lamens terms. If I get something wrong, feel free to explain yourself better <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
*Fades have the most impact on the game. The class has a steep learning curve that seperates good players from inexperienced ones. The problem is bridging this gap between good players and inexperienced ones. *In clan games, Fades dominated the game, and in pub play, Fades are seen as a risk. Bridging this gap, by making the Fade play almost as well with both types of players, will also help bring Clan and Pub balances closer together.
For me, I would like to know why the game is lost or won depending on the Fade class living or failing. I would like to know why the Fade has been emphasized as determining the fate of the game over other units, especially the onos.
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--QuoteBegin-DragonMech+Mar 21 2005, 02:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DragonMech @ Mar 21 2005, 02:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Quaunaut+Mar 21 2005, 03:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Quaunaut @ Mar 21 2005, 03:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Is having a lifeform that requires skill such a bad thing? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not at all.
Having a lifeform that requires a great deal of skill to play that is the cornerstone of the alien game is. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Puh-leeze.
I was up to decent fade skill level in 3 days- if anything, its easier to master than the skulk, if you ask me.
Comments
The only exception to this rule is the grenade launcher, which rarely sees use in clan play because it is not a weapon that has a reliable mean damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't true Grendel because lets say you are 40% accurate.
You fire 30 bullets, and kill one skulk. By the time 30 bullets go off, if there were two skulks chances are you'd be dead before 30 bullets fired.
Now say you are 60% accurate. That's only 20 bullets to kill a skulk, and the second skulk who is biting you is now by himself, and with some medspam you can kill him to, at a 60% accuracy rate.
Only a 20% increase, and already you've doubled your kill rate. That's an exponential increase in killing power for marines.
ALL aliens lack this basic exponential skill increase the basic marine has, except for the fade.
Changing the fade in any shape or form indicates a lack of game knowledge if you ask me. By the way, you don't need a good computer to be a good fade, and movement skill in my oppinion is far less difficult to master than aim skill.
Proof of this is how you will see plenty of good fades on pubs rack of a high score, but they go marine and are terrible. Marines have far more to master skill wise, aliens have far more to master teamwork wise, which is where their true power comes from as a result of being able to attack marines at their choosing; in theory the game of numbers is always on their side.
<img src='http://server3.uploadit.org/files/jimbo4ever-balance.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
NS balance, IMHO. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whilst it made me chuckle, it's not really tremendously constructive. If you think my idea is wrong, why not tell me why? I didn't say I was plotting a graph based on hard data. I specifically stated it was simply a visual representational aid. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again...its back to the basics.
Where are you getting your data from? Some random pub server at 2am? The NSA Vet server at midday? The number of players as well as the skill of players greaty affects such numbers. In a scrim between two clans, the more skilled side will get the earlygame kills, and then if the more skilled side is halfway decent, Fades wouldnt really matter except to help in the cleanup. The only time that Fades really come to mean anything is when the teams are matched up evenlyish. At that point, it again goes back to whos more skilled, but since neither made decent headway in the earlygame, its truly a tossup as to who will win.
Theres really no need to make the entire affair any easier, short of fixing the smackingly obvious bits of user unfriendlyness. Especially considering <b>it would take 2 goddamn minutes to write an optimized default config.cfg</b>. I don't see how in the world the Fade is supposedly responsible for NS' horrible, horrible, horrible control schemes.
I disagree with the entire point of this thread. The thesis is that people should be closer to the best players, without having to put in as much effort as the best players.
If you want to see an example of a marine skill curve vs fading ability, get a hold of the demo's of terror vs. BAH last night. Watch mustang after terror starts handing out jetpacks. Watch how well he controls the jp, and watch his shots. Especially when he chases, hunts down, and slays Pr's fade. There <u>MAY</u> not be a better fade than mustang, but there <u>is no better marine.</u>
If you touch the fade you will hurt the game.
But thats just me. Sometimes they absorb bullets and use them for HP or something I dunno.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you would truthfully like something like that in a game you play on, then go play a MMORPG where the only 'skill' is hitting the right hotkey at the right moment.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->You're using MMORPGs as an example of a genre where time spent is <i>less</i> important? Have you ever actually <i>played</i> one?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Trying to change that is like trying to make the sun rise in the west and set in the east.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Wonderful argument. Truly, the gods of argyamentation have bestowed unto you the greatest of their gifts. "You're wrong, because that's the way it was, is and ever shall be." I stand aside in awe. Come back when you have some rational logic.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->how can you ask that the default Alien class get a BOOST of any sort at two hives?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Because clanners can already bunnyhop, but pubbers can't. Clanners don't NEED the button, so their game isn't affected. If you want to balance for clans play, fine, but don't whine when people suggest steps to take to bring pub play closer to your l33t level.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let me ask another question: Would you give the OK to giving Marines shotguns on spawn after the armory is upgraded? Or having JP/HA being a one-time-drop?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Again, if clanners could already do it and pubbers could not, then <b>yes.</b> How would that be imbalanced?
Skulks usually account for 3% to 97% of all kills in games.
Good players use energy conservation scripts or mouse wheel to blink anyway making adrenaline a non issue. This idea would only hurt those who already need help.
I disagree with the entire point of this thread. The thesis is that people should be closer to the best players, without having to put in as much effort as the best players.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree a bit with your assesment of the thesis.
It's more that people's impact on the game should be closer to the best players relative to the effort they put in.
Currently, the fade provides no noticable increase in impact until a very significant amount of effort has been put in. A moderately skilled player is currently little better than a poorly skilled player when it comes to the fade. However, a well skilled player has a significant increase in the impact they bring to the game over a moderately skilled player as a fade -- I suggest an increase far in excess of how much their actual skill has increased.
But thats just me. Sometimes they absorb bullets and use them for HP or something I dunno. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
haha, so true
Pub fades play most of their fading hours on combat. Clan fades play most of their fading hours in ns. Playing a lvl 10 fade against bad marine shots most of the time will will hurt your game and playing a regen vanilla fade against excellant shots all the time will help it. When i play combat, i don't break the classic upgrade bounds, and then i only upgrade the things i need to keep the aliens from losing. focus for jps ect.
"It's more that people's impact on the game should be closer to the best players relative to the effort they put in."
So the players that have put more time and effort into the game, and consequently are better, deserve thier skill level and the subsequent victories. If thats what you're saying then I agree with you.
Good players use energy conservation scripts or mouse wheel to blink anyway making adrenaline a non issue. This idea would only hurt those who already need help. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
umm...energy conservation scripts? Huh? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
IF there is one, I'd very much like to see it.
As for using mousewheel, how does that help you conserve adren? the only thing it does ishelp you switch to and from blink, which is good, but anybody can use the mousewheel.
What is -noforcemparms?
Good players use energy conservation scripts or mouse wheel to blink anyway making adrenaline a non issue. This idea would only hurt those who already need help. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
good players dont use scripts at all (mp_bs 0), and you dont need to hold down the attack key to blink, a simple tap will do just fine to conserve adren
but anyway, good players could easily adapt to this idea, as your comments support. Lesser fades would be hurt at first but should adapt quickly.
I still say that it would help less skilled fades in the long run by forcing them to retreat before they're hurt too badly
Could you post a link to those demos?
Good players use energy conservation scripts or mouse wheel to blink anyway making adrenaline a non issue. This idea would only hurt those who already need help. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
umm...energy conservation scripts? Huh? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
IF there is one, I'd very much like to see it.
As for using mousewheel, how does that help you conserve adren? the only thing it does ishelp you switch to and from blink, which is good, but anybody can use the mousewheel. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
alias +quickblink "+attack; wait; -attack;"
alias -quickblink ""
as well as the mouse wheel bound to +attack make you use the bare minimum of energy for a little blink, which will carry you a decent distance. HBS uses mwheelup +attack, mwheeldown +jump, so he can blink and bunny hop with the mouse wheel.
I only use fastswitch and the slot keys.
And also, hasn't this problem already been kinda solved? Now that teams are actually getting sensory chambers first sometimes, which are horrible for fades compared to the other chambers (focus is nice, but I'd much rather have celerity or cara, or even regen), the alien game no longer focuses on one uber-fade. The fade isn't any more accessible than it was, it's just that no one cares anymore 'cause they can make an impact in the game as a skulk.
To be an effective leaping skulk/blinking fade, you not only have to master movement and aiming skills, you also have to work on your arcade-game button-mashing skills.
For many people, that's just too many things to concentrate on at once. Far better would be a system where you could assign leap/bite/whatever to separate keys/mouse buttons. (This would also help those of us afflicted with some form of DiabloII disease/RSS.)
Most people CAN EVENTUALLY learn these skills. (Someone *will* care, so YES, I can leap/bite just fine on servers with blockscripts on.) On the other hand, is this really a game skill we care about?
Additionally, as has been mentioned the default config is even worse. I learned to leap/bite without fastswitch on. It's a PAIN to:
Select leap (key of choice)
change weapon (attack)
leap (attack)
select bite (key of choice)
change weapon (attack)
bite (attack)
Slightly better, but still a pain is what I currently do:
change to leap (key of choice)
leap (attack)
change to bite (key of choice)
bite (attack)
MUCH better is what I currently do on mp_bs 0 servers:
leap (key of choice)
bite (key of choice)
Blink/swipe is similar.
This simple change would make fading much more approachable to average players while truly l33t players would still retain their edge due to their superior movement and aiming skills.
EDIT: I completely skipped over using the mousewheel to change weapons because that's not even a realistic option in NS. Sure, you can do that and play at a very reasonable way in almost every OTHER game, but not NS.
And also, hasn't this problem already been kinda solved? Now that teams are actually getting sensory chambers first sometimes, which are horrible for fades compared to the other chambers (focus is nice, but I'd much rather have celerity or cara, or even regen), the alien game no longer focuses on one uber-fade. The fade isn't any more accessible than it was, it's just that no one cares anymore 'cause they can make an impact in the game as a skulk. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. You do not need a script to tap blink. As previously mentioned you can use your mousewheel. What also was not mentioned is that if you have a sensitive mouse (mx500 or above) you can just tap the mouse and it works fine.
Higher the adren requirements makes it harder for fades and increases the nessesity of mouse wheel or tap blink scripts.
2. Sensory chambers are not bad for fades. Focus is the best upgrade in the game for the fade, if you need an explanation why then just check <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=90300' target='_blank'>here.</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Finally there is the focus fade, quite possibly the best upgrade in the game for the fade. The fade being the best hit and run unit logically benefits from the upgrade that deals the most up-front damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Focus may be the best upgrade for a GOOD fade. For a semi-skilled fade, the lack of adrenaline or carapace may just lead to an early grave. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
EDIT: Remove unecessary crap.
Fades in the early mid-game are proper. They're the combat lifeform above the Lerk, and the first type out there that can decimate. They're fine.
However, it's near end-game that they're still being used ALOT, which I don't like. I want the Onos to be more of the end-game unit, not the Fade.
I think the problem is that Fades are overused not only because they work, but because the Onos isn't a killing machine like the Fade. If the Onos was worth it's res, then more people would Onos instead of Fade, making there be less Fades in general after the mid-game, where there SHOULD be Fades.
What is -noforcemparms? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No mouse acceleration. At least the only way to do it without messing with windows.
Could you post a link to those demos? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
go to their site
<i>> How were fades killed or how did they avoid getting killed?</i>
Fades get killed whenever marines just STAYED THE HELL TOGETHER and avoided getting killed when attacking large groups alone.
Not at all.
Having a lifeform that requires a great deal of skill to play that is the cornerstone of the alien game is.
*Fades have the most impact on the game. The class has a steep learning curve that seperates good players from inexperienced ones. The problem is bridging this gap between good players and inexperienced ones.
*In clan games, Fades dominated the game, and in pub play, Fades are seen as a risk. Bridging this gap, by making the Fade play almost as well with both types of players, will also help bring Clan and Pub balances closer together.
For me, I would like to know why the game is lost or won depending on the Fade class living or failing. I would like to know why the Fade has been emphasized as determining the fate of the game over other units, especially the onos.
Not at all.
Having a lifeform that requires a great deal of skill to play that is the cornerstone of the alien game is. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Puh-leeze.
I was up to decent fade skill level in 3 days- if anything, its easier to master than the skulk, if you ask me.
People just need common sense.
Man I'm sounding jaded today.