I'd like to contest the assertion that analysis of matchplay rests entirely on who the fades are, when they came out, etc etc. They're important, yes, obviously, but a LOT of analysis goes into the first 3-4 minutes of skulk vs. marine. In my mind, those opening minutes are the best place for marines to win the match. If you can take down even one node before the 3:00 mark rolls around, you have significantly improved your chances. If you take out another by the time 4:00 rolls around, you're in a very good position.
The more accurate description of the phenomenon, then, would be this:
It's possible for really amazing fades to turn the mid-game tide if the marines took down one or two nodes.
Depending on viewpoint, this statement may or may not affect whether you think this has any bearing on the original issue. I can see what you're thinking, and it's not crazy or anything. But flattening the fade skill curve is easier said (or graphed) than done.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Mar 25 2005, 06:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Mar 25 2005, 06:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You still haven't addressed all my comments citing real world examples justifying why weapons switching is not an issue. You need to before I'm going to give your line of reasoning more credibility.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Fair enough...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Most people can manage 35 words per minute typing. I can do 60-80 at a push. That's with around 97% accuracy. That's 10+ keypresses per second, all in a specific sequence that's reactive to real time input. So don't tell me someone can't manage to switch between 2 slots with practice.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->First off, your example assumes a relatively calm and relaxed atmosphere. In games like this the atmosphere is anything but calm and relaxed. (and I *KNOW* that this is the case because I've played with you as Comm Grendel. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
However, the bigger flaw is that you are trying to compare a scripted output with a spontaneous output. Typing words is all about a memorized set of keystrokes that are the same for a given word every time it is used. In the game the keystrokes are never in the same order.
Furthermore, the number of simultaneous tasks a person is doing will directly affect their performance in those given tasks. It's obvious a person's accuracy level will be higher if they are doing one task as compared to a person doing 5 simultaneous tasks. This is why most people find playing marine is easier than alien since point and shoot is easier than having to control movements AND engage at melee range, AND avoid bullets, AND bite the target. Meanwhile your target can just stand there and fire at you, not doing anything more than pressing one fire button and slightly moving their mouse.
A key aspect is the load placed on the user, and the gameplay interface. There just aren't enough fingers/buttons to go around. You have the right hand working the mouse with the fire buttons, and the left hand working the direction keys and controlling jump. The HL weapon switch is clunky at best, and there is a slight delay when switching weapons.
However, it all comes down to the number of SIMULTANEOUS actions that a user is required to perform at any given time. The greater the number of simultaneous actions they must perform, the greater the skill required to carry out those actions. If we were talking about a marine class that required a wepon switch to use a class, then this wouldn't be as big an issue simply because of the nature of the marine class as a range fighter.
Conversely, the alien classes are melee fighters, and so even the slightest mistake can mean a major loss. The fade, as it stands now, requires too much skill to play at a level that is of any use to the alien team. Let me quote you from your first post in this thread:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>The unusually high skills required to take the role of Fade are harmful to both the popularity of the game and to gameplay balance.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with this statement, and it almost seems like you are going against your original statement just because you disagree with an aspect of my opinion. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
In the end I believe that it all comes down to blink, which is quite hard to use and master, coupled with the fact that one has to weapon switch in and out of blink mode to do any damage to marines. It's this area I think we need to focus on, not the fade's health or other attributes.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
The conditions I'm referring to are a typing test with a completely unprepared text, which is used for assesment for selection for paid employment. That's not what I'd refer to as a calm environment.
I'd agree that blink forms a significant part of the problem, but I simply disagree that weapon switching is the major issue. It doesn't contradict my original assertion in the slightest.
Of all of them, its the one I believe most encourages a semi-accurate hit/run strategy, but I wonder how it would measure up to HA (adding Focus on top of a slower ROF, for instance).
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Mar 25 2005, 08:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Mar 25 2005, 08:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'd agree that blink forms a significant part of the problem, but I simply disagree that weapon switching is the major issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->You're misquoting me here. I haven't said that weapon switching is the problem, I said the MANDATORY NEED to weapon switch in combat is a "key aspect" in the problem that we face in making the fade more user friendly.
We can agree to disagree on this point, but in speaking with people who don't play fade, and asking them WHY they don't play fade, the end result is always the same. "It's too hard to play" or "It's too much work". Mandatory weapon switching during combat is just one part of the bigger whole. Blink movement complexity, slow ground movement speed and no range weapons (before hive 3) are also significant contributing factors.
Even if we were to assign a bind strictly to blink, we would still have issues with fade complexity.
Perhaps we should be looking in a different direction though. Given the responses, instead of looking at what can be done to make the fade easier to play, perhaps we should first analyze what makes the fade hard to play. Once we reach that consensus, then we can look to overcome it.
I really don't think altering the fade itself is a good idea. It is, and has been for a long time, the most fun class in the game for many. A large part of the fun comes from the huge amounts of skill involved/needed.
Second, it's been at the top of the NS usefulness ladder for ages. Aliens NEED fades. Ok, so you can try to shuffle that fact around by nerfing/tweaking it, but that'd just completely whack over the balance again, something you'll want to avoid in a "final" version I assume?
There's plenty of stuff you can do outside the actual game:
People suggested making a better default config. Hud_fastswitch 1 and such.
Link/Advertise to fading articles/demo's on NSLearn, so that the people who want help but don't know where to get it are helped.
Some sort of decent manual/tutorial that explains what the fade does, and how he does it. Something simple of course, that tells players things like "Blink is your main ability. Use it to avoid getting hit while moving around the map, using hit and run tactics".
There's cool stuff enabled in this game for those players that are talented and practise enough. Joe Pubber 1.04 athmosphere fanatic may not be a good fade, he may never be. Are you going to alter the game to help him become good, or are you going to leave it up to him to work for it himself? Even if you don't help him, he could still gorge, skulk, lerk, or onos.
<!--QuoteBegin-Buggy+Mar 25 2005, 11:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Buggy @ Mar 25 2005, 11:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There's plenty of stuff you can do outside the actual game:<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Whenever you force a player to go outside the game to play the game decently, you risk losing that player. This is especially true when you consider internet cafes and their limitations, and important when you consider their popularity overseas.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There's cool stuff enabled in this game for those players that are talented and <b><i>practise enough</b></i>. Joe Pubber 1.04 athmosphere fanatic may not be a good fade, he may never be. Are you going to alter the game to help him become good, or are you going to leave it up to him to work for it himself? Even if you don't help him, he could still gorge, skulk, lerk, or onos. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> (Emphasis added)
That's the exact point that's being addressed. The amount of practice/talent that it takes to be a reasonable fade is unreasonable for the average player.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you insist on requiring a player to be hardcore to play the game decently, you eventually find that only the hardcore play the game.
Do you want the NS player pool to stagnate or expand?
NS isn't dying by any stretch, but, from what I've read, it's not really expanding either. As the technology improves, more competitors and copiers are going to step forward, and they're going to be using newer technologies. If players find themselves discouraged because the most vital life-form on the alien side doesn't provide a reasonable return for the time spent using it, we may well find that they decide to simply drop NS and head for the competitors.
I dont fade. I dont fade because atm I'm not a very good fade, and it would require alot of practice and pain to achieve a good enough level of fading for me to able to fade for my clan on a regular basis.
I also know that there is need for people on the team to stay skulk, and go gorge to drop improtant buildings and then go skulk again. Even though the fade as a unit is very important, as the hive as a building is, it is equally important for an alien team to have good skulks. The better the skulk the less pressure on the fade to perform, the less rts the marines have, and the sooner that skulk can drop the rt or hive or chambers.
Now, dont misunderstand me, the fade is very important, and the skill of the fade is very important. The skill curve is also pretty harsh. It is though because of the inaccesability of the fade (and the need for only 1-2 fades on a team) that people are actually inspired to take the time to become good. I am certain that if the fade required as much work as it does now to be as usueful, but you could get away with less work because of other circumstances, we wouldnt see as good fades around.
What's my point? Yes: the fade is not a unit anyone can/wants to play. Yes: the fade has a central role for the alien team. My point however is that I do not see the problem with this. There are four other roles that needs to be filled on the alien team, and these are, while perhaps not as glorious as the fades', just as important. It's like in american football, the guy who makes all the touchdowns get the glory, but without a good team who made it possible for him, he'd have made no difference.
I hate fades. I'm either getting owned by a redemp/regen/cara fade. Or I can't handle one and I get killed by a camper. DIE FADES DIE! <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Mar 26 2005, 09:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Mar 26 2005, 09:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I dont fade. I dont fade because atm I'm not a very good fade, and it would require alot of practice and pain to achieve a good enough level of fading for me to able to fade for my clan on a regular basis. I also know that there is need for people on the team to stay skulk, and go gorge to drop improtant buildings and then go skulk again. Even though the fade as a unit is very important, as the hive as a building is, it is equally important for an alien team to have good skulks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sure, I'll agree with that. However, the problem is the alien team's res flow. With individual res pools, the alien team members ahve to be ready and able to assume the role of ANY class. Unlike the marine team where only one person can/does command, there is no limit as to when an alien player can/will change classes or drop structures.
So let's say you are playing as skulk and your team says they need a fade. By some bad fortune, the team's other fade had an untimely death. (let's say a lag spike killed them - a no fault death) You are the only one that has enough to go fade because the other person with enough just dropped the second hive. What do you do? Would you play fade, or would you not bother because you know you wouldn't be of any real use?
That's the problem here.
The alien teams needs ALL classes to be playable by ALL players because they may be called upon to play ANY of those classes at any given time. If resource donation was in the game then perhaps this would be different and people could donate their res to someone better skilled. However, that's not the case and it never will be based on dev comments.
So that means the public needs to be able to play the fade without it being overly difficult to do so.
<!--QuoteBegin-Faskalia+Mar 26 2005, 09:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Faskalia @ Mar 26 2005, 09:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Stop playing CO. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Correction: play CO, but don't use more than one upgrade from each chamber.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Mar 26 2005, 10:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Mar 26 2005, 10:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Faskalia+Mar 26 2005, 09:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Faskalia @ Mar 26 2005, 09:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Stop playing CO. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Correction: play CO, but don't use more than one upgrade from each chamber.
And don't do suicide runs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree, playing CO as a fade bound to Classic rules is much harder than fading in classic as the marines are grouped together more and on average will have more firepower during the game.
<!--QuoteBegin-Savant+Mar 26 2005, 03:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 26 2005, 03:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Mar 26 2005, 09:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Mar 26 2005, 09:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I dont fade. I dont fade because atm I'm not a very good fade, and it would require alot of practice and pain to achieve a good enough level of fading for me to able to fade for my clan on a regular basis. I also know that there is need for people on the team to stay skulk, and go gorge to drop improtant buildings and then go skulk again. Even though the fade as a unit is very important, as the hive as a building is, it is equally important for an alien team to have good skulks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sure, I'll agree with that. However, the problem is the alien team's res flow. With individual res pools, the alien team members ahve to be ready and able to assume the role of ANY class. Unlike the marine team where only one person can/does command, there is no limit as to when an alien player can/will change classes or drop structures.
So let's say you are playing as skulk and your team says they need a fade. By some bad fortune, the team's other fade had an untimely death. (let's say a lag spike killed them - a no fault death) You are the only one that has enough to go fade because the other person with enough just dropped the second hive. What do you do? Would you play fade, or would you not bother because you know you wouldn't be of any real use?
That's the problem here.
The alien teams needs ALL classes to be playable by ALL players because they may be called upon to play ANY of those classes at any given time. If resource donation was in the game then perhaps this would be different and people could donate their res to someone better skilled. However, that's not the case and it never will be based on dev comments.
So that means the public needs to be able to play the fade without it being overly difficult to do so.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I totally agree with you. And my opinion on the Fade is that it is too god like in the hands of an expert and a waste of res for everyone else to evolve to.
We need to find a bit of a middle ground. I agree with another poster who said Blinking as the fade feeling like you are controlling a flying brick.
Heres my suggestion for blink. Totally remove the flying brick way of blinks and turn it into this: stealthy, guerilla warfare like footsoldier.
Assuming all other funcitions of the fade remain the same, when you use blink, you turn 100% invisible, move at roughly 2x normal walking speed, and make no footstep sounds. This effect only lasts as long as you hold down the fire button. As soon as you release it, you turn 100% visible with no delay. The key to makeing this work is the marines can have no way of detecting a blinking fade. not scanning or nearby obs will detect the fade if its blinking.
Playing fade will be like playing a really strong silenced, cloaked skulk. you pop into exsistence, swipe a few marines and disapear without a trace. What could be easier or more fun? The skill factor here is about energy conservation. if you run into a fray blinked, swipe a few times, and try to blink out, you might not makeit to the door if your energy runs out, you'll become visible again during your retreat and probably die.
My suggestion is based on my love for NS, we already have a flying class, called the lerk, we don't need a flying brick too. And we have a tank like class, the Onos. The thing we are missing is the super skulk class, 'heavy infantry' for aliens playing a bigger class should be easier, not harder.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Mar 21 2005, 04:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Mar 21 2005, 04:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The thing is, there <b>isn't</b> much incentive to practice the fade. My whole point is that the effort/reward is so heavily biased toward effort, that it disuades most people from learning it to begin with. There's nothing fun about getting violated repeatedly on a public server because you don't have any decent fades and no one is willing to even try because they're tired of dying instantly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Quoting for prosperity, I used to play fade when blinking was different meaning that it wasn't such a death trap to move into a bunch of marines if you knew your exit and timing, now with even more energy management and the fact you're shot at as you come and go as well... *shrugs*...I play this game for fun when I'm not working or doing university. I get a lot more fun out of generic skulking and learning to keep evolving to new marine tactics, and I get loads of fun out of gorging for the team. I long ago gave up trying to learn fade (or onos to a lesser extent, though the times they're needed is much much less than the fade, which I think is grendels point about it all) because I simply don't want to invest the limited time I have into something that is going to be dire to play for a significant period of my game playing life this year. By the time I am able to handle fades properly, through any more changes, I bet it'll be time to stop playing online games as frequently, if not NS all together.
This doesn't mean I wouldn't like to Fade, and don't feel that not having more than 6 hours a week to play a game (at most) for reasons of relaxation and fun should mean that I am not able to. People saying "well joe pubber can use the other classes" is a bit naive, especially when trying to state they're just as important. On pubs at least, a good fade will carry the game, and I really doubt anyone can deny that it doesn't happen frequently. A gorge will drop a hive and 3 DC/MC's...but that's hardly a skilled contribution to the game is it? If one person didn't do this another person could and would, it's almost a given in respect to time variable in each game. The fade, however, is an individually skilled unit that changes the course of games and carrys teams to victory. I certainly usually feel that, once a good fade is on the team, the job is almost done with some degree of certainty. You can feel the ease of the game increase as good fades evolve into the game at whatever point and take up the strain that advanced tech places on a skulk team. This isn't "teamwork" though, as much as it can be confused with it.
Celerity lerk is the most fun, you just add in your own sound effects. I personally make TIE fighter noises or hum some Wagner.
I am slowly learning to perfect my fade - I know the hit and run, but I'm not confident to the stage of blinking into a room, hitting a rine, blinking to the roof, doing a headcount, then blinking out. I CAN however flap into a room, bite 2-3 rines, and get out without taking too much damage as a lerk.
Combat lerk is good practice for fading, its just a shame the fade handling is dire. Handling plus invisible obstacles plus your typical lag means its damned hard to get to grips with CONFIDENTLY. As a lerk, you can swerve, glide, you name it. Even with lag and invisible obstacles, I've yet to get blocked on a wall. Blocked by another lifeform, yes, but not the environment.
Its one thing to say "practice", but most people are playing when they have free time. I do not intend to use my free time to start my own server, start cheats, and practice fading 101. I use my free time to PLAY the game, and I'm sure I'm not alone.
It might be different for other people, it would be different if I was back in Uni with a nice fat student grant and no need to work, but for those of us with jobs and half decent lives you just cant afford to start an empty server to "unwind".
Basic fading should be something easily "picked up" ingame. Yes, like all things it can be REFINED outside of the game (practice scrims with your mates, whatever) but it shouldn't be hard for a player to at least make an effective contribution.
Fades ARE the midgame of NS. They take it all the way to the end, where they are replaced by xeno skulks. Ability to use them should be instinctive and natural, and suitably rewarding to people who practice outside of the game.
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Mar 26 2005, 03:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Mar 26 2005, 03:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fades ARE the midgame of NS. They take it all the way to the end, where they are replaced by xeno skulks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Xeno skulks don't take over the role of the fade.
To your point of fading not being fun; it's the most rewarding and adrenaline pumping part of NS. The way you downplayed it makes me realize something.
You've been playing NS, for what? Several versions now? That's like a year of your life. A year of playing NS.
It could be 2-6 hours a week, but that's a minimum of 64 to 384 hours in one year? Come on, if you played any console game for 64 to 384 hours, you will have already beaten it at LEAST 1 time, and shorter games you will know it like a good book.
I find your lack of time argument weak. You have plenty of time, it's all an issue of management.
Now if you are telling us that you can't learn the fade in 64-384 hours, then honestly I think the problem lies with the player and NOT the fade.
Here's what really the issue with the fade is:
- The fade isn't fair. Only the best alien players go fade. If you don't have a good movement ability and fast reaction times, then you won't go fade because those who are good at fade will continue to go fade and dominate. - Why don't new people learn to fade? Because if they screw up, they will be patronized by their entire alien team for "Losing the game". Just like the comm is blamed ever time the marines lose, the same goes for the fades. They have to do the killing, an important and difficult part of NS to do. - So if people are complaining they aren't going fade enough, instead of blaiming the game, it's time to learn how to play it. "Novices Whine, Veterans Adapt" this is the true meaning here. This is about people who refuse to learn the game, dispite the fact that there are hundreds of other players can do what some can't do. And then this minority blames the game, because they know they have no case if they start blaming those who are good at the game for hogging the fade spots.
My advice to those who "suck terribly" at fading: Tuck in your T-Shirt, head over to the computer screen, and proceed to lose game after game as being fade, ignore the critism, and finally one fine day, you will be critizing some other player who is a poor fade.
It's not about total time spent that counts, it's about how you spend the time playing it when you do. If you don't challenge yourself, you aren't going to get better.
Most bulky guys aren't born big. They work themselves to become bulky. Do they spend their lives lifting to be big? Hell no, they only do it a few hours a week... but instead of doing 20 pushups, they do 4 sets of 6 bench presses. And they are huge for it.
<!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Mar 26 2005, 07:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Mar 26 2005, 07:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find your lack of time argument weak. You have plenty of time, it's all an issue of management.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're absolutely right. Now, please explain to me why I should have to put in hours of work and put up with tons of abuse for very little results, and all just to play a game?
Here's the thing you're not getting, I'm not a hardcore player. I have no desire to be a hardcore player. I will never be among the top most skilled in NS, and I accept that. However, unless I'm willing to have the dedication of a hardcore player either in time or in accepting abuse for making my team (not just me, my team) lose I won't be able to play the fade. Not "won't be able to play it well" as with the other classes, but won't be able to play it at all. Savant has already explained however, why sometimes it'll be required that I do so.. except I can't.
No matter how many times its said, you don't seem to understand the point: If you require a player to be hardcore to play the game, sooner or later only the hardcore players will play.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now if you are telling us that you can't learn the fade in 64-384 hours, then honestly I think the problem lies with the player and NOT the fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the attitude of the hardcore player. The one who plays to "get better" in hopes of having fun in the future rather than simply playing to have fun now. You might have that kind of time, I don't. Yeah, if I dedicated all that time to specifically learning the fade, I'd probably be fairly decent.
You haven't yet explained to me why I should have to though. Why should the casual player be forced to devote their play-time in NS to specifically learning how to fade and taking abuse in the meantime in order to be able to play the class, not at an expert level, but simply well enough to survive and be of assistance to their team as opposed to a waste of resources?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is about people who refuse to learn the game, dispite the fact that there are hundreds of other players can do what some can't do. And then this minority blames the game, because they know they have no case if they start blaming those who are good at the game for hogging the fade spots.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you have the words minority and majority confused.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My advice to those who "suck terribly" at fading: Tuck in your T-Shirt, head over to the computer screen, and proceed to lose game after game as being fade, ignore the critism, and finally one fine day, you will be critizing some other player who is a poor fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No. I won't.
The truth is, I won't be tucking in my T-shirt, because it doesn't go well with my tie and career. NS is not a career. It's not a job. It's not even a hobby. It's a game.
I'm here because it's unique and holds a different dynamic with the two vastly different teams, fairly decent balance, and RTS/FPS hybrid. But it's only a game. And if I find I'm having to "work" to enjoy it, or if I have to suck down abuse for losing the game not just for me but for a bunch of other people because I'm unable to devote significant amounts of time to it? I just won't bother.
I get enough fulfillment out of my life that I certainly don't need NS. It's fun icing, but that's all it is. If it's easier for me to stop playing as opposed to learning to play a required class well, then that's exactly what I'll do.
So no, I won't be criticizing people who are poor at the fade. I simply won't be here. The sad thing is, there are a lot more of people like me than there are people like you. Now if that's the direction you want the game to take, a small community of very dedicated players as opposed to a large community of all types of players, I suppose that's your decision, and we simply have nothing more to discuss.
I'm sorry, but this 'practise' argument is bogus, big time, and I'll tell you why.
While a person should (and usually will) get better at something when they practise it, they have to be able to DO IT first. For many people, they are unable to play to the minimum level of competence required to build on those skills.
It's like throwing a person behind the wheel of a car and telling them to 'practise'. Don't worry if you keep getting into accidents, you'll get the hang of it sooner or later. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Sorry, that just doesn't cut it.
Let's be honest here. Most people who play NS aren't wimps that cringe from a challenge. However, most people who play NS do so in their spare time for FUN, and don't have the desire or inclination to speed weeks 'training' to play a fringe class in a game that they only play occasionally. This is precisely why the marine team door is continually stacked - a person doesn't need to train like mad to play as marine.
In my opinion, to suggest practise as the 'solution' to the fade is just plain arrogant. People shouldn't have to practise to be able to PLAY the fade, it should be playable with no practise at all. While practise should make an 'average' player better at something, a person shouldn't have to 'practise' just to gain a BASIC level of functioning. Can you imagine if the skulk was that way and we forced players to leap-bite all of their kills? There would be no game because people wouldn't be willing to take the time to master something just to PLAY the class, let alone get better at it.
If people like a 'complex' fade, then it will need to be marginalized so that it is NOT required to be used for aliens to win. Then people can choose to pass on it and they are not left out.
I would like a compromise between a complex fade and a fade that is more user friendly.
Heres another 'WILD' idea. Make it so that when you die as a fade, lerk or gorge, maybe even Onos, you get a freebie to go to that class again at no res cost. There will be some restrictions though.
If you die as a fade within 1 minute after evolving to fade, you can go fade again for free.each 30 seconds after the first minute adds 10% to the res cost to evolve again.
for Example, you go fade, you die in less than a minute, you respawn, you look in your menu and you can go fade again for free. This is a limited offer, if you choose any other class, your free fade is nulled and you have to pay full price next time.
example 2: you go fade and die after 3 minutes. First minute 1:00 free 1:30 cost 5 res 2:00 cost 10 res 2:30 cost 15 res 3:00 cost 20 res to go fade again.
eventually after you lived longer than 6:00 minutes and you die, you'll have to pay full price, 50 res to go fade again.
In order to really balance this situation, you'll have to greatly increase gestation time to put a long time gap between suicide fades. Sure they might do a bit of damage, but the long period while they gestate again will keep them out of the action for a long time. This idea will keep more higher life forms on the battle field. It will also encourage higher lifeforms to stop being so cowardly.
I think this idea would solve a lot of problems without affecting balance, since good fades never die anyway, and the noob fades will get many many extra chances to try again, except the fades who die will be stuck in the respawn cycle and gestating more time than they are fighting. But it won't be a major loss to the team if a fade dies, just a delay.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
The gestation time better be in the range of 2-3 minutes then...I can see this being abused SO much. Marines have to spend a LOT of effort and res to kill a Fade, and their efforts need to MEAN something.
If we implement this, then Fades need to earn no r4k during the first 5 minutes or something.
How about giving the marines a huge res bonus for killing a higher life form. so instead of penalizing bad alien players directly, you do it in a way which doesn't make playing fade so stressful.
Personally I find lerk to be way more fun to play then fade because as fade I can screw around a bit without having to worry about 1 shotgun blast killing me. Plus going 10-0 as lerk in the first 4 minutes of a scrim is a blast.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Xeno skulks don't take over the role of the fade. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Make no mistake, they do not take over the role of hit n run killer, they DO however take over the role of MOST USEFUL UNIT.
Against a coordinated marine turtle, most fades are toast. If you don't hit a wall blinking out of the turtle, you'll probably hit a member of your own team or better yet a marine who's been waiting to block you.
Xeno skulks do not need to worry about this, and tooled up with Cara and Celer they become the endgame of NS. I've not seen one marine endgame stand up to concerted Xeno. You can use the Fades to mop up after. Skulk missle is absolutely free, Fades are 50 res a pop and worthless against a pack of rines with their backs to the wall.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> To your point of fading not being fun; it's the most rewarding and adrenaline pumping part of NS <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, its not fun. You have 5-7 other people screaming at you to save the game, every marine on the map wants your head, and if you die your entire team will call you a retard. No, fading is not fun. It might be for some players who swan into a server, demand chambers, then state they're fading, but for a player like me fading is certainly a last resort, its at the end of a long line.
Right now, I am dedicatedly playing Diablo II, Red Alert 2, and NS. I am IDLY playing MGS3, WC3, SC, HW, Starship Troopers, and NWN. I am RARELY playing, SW:Galactic Battlegrounds, BF1942 plus about 8 mods, SoFII, AvP2, and GTA:SA.
I will play whichever I wish to unwind with at the time. Some I have completed, some I have not completed. Some are for fun, some for relaxation, some are played so that I may finish them and play the sequel.
Looking at my shelf, I have over 100 PC games, easily. I've about 2 dozen PSX games which I keep out of nostalgia, about 2 dozen PS2 games because they're fun, and about a dozen Dreamcast games because they're the only ones worth buying. I another corner I have an Atari Jaguar with the 3 games worth owning for it.
I call myself the average gamer. I cycle through a lot of games, and do not have time to dedicate several weeks of my life getting to be an exceptional fade player just so I can earn enough of a "reputation" to Fade without the team yelling at me.
I have played with a few damned good fades (pub and clan, thx) and even then they have everyone saying "gg game's over" whenever they join aliens. The alien team expects them to win all the more because they're "big names".
Fading is NOT fun at all. It may be different for those of us in little tribes of 6, or those of us who don't really care about the other players and are only in it for the opportunity to "pwnzor teh pubber n00bs", but for the rest of us looking for a team game its NOT fun. I do not enjoy having someone waltz into my game, declare he will be fade, then proceed to whine for chambers so he can fade and enjoy HIS game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now if you are telling us that you can't learn the fade in 64-384 hours, then honestly I think the problem lies with the player and NOT the fade. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
64-384 hours, most of which are gorge because you can't "learn" fade until endgame when you've a bucketload of res and noone cares if you die. Most of which are spent as skulk because you're doing Xeno runs or you've no res after dropping a hive plus chambers. If I want fun, I go lerk, because its cheap, noone screams at you, and there's no real pressure on you.
Further, I would not touch CO with a ten foot barge pole, and I'm not wasting valuable Classic time trying to play it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> and finally one fine day, you will be critizing some other player who is a poor fade. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd like to amend that to "finally one fine day, you will be an asshat". You shouldn't be criticising other "poor" players. You should be helping them. Persistently going fade to the detriment of the team, ignoring criticism or comments, will eventually turn you into an arrogant smacktard. Yes, you too can join servers and demand the noobs drop DC for you. You too can delude yourself into thinking you have earned the right to cuss out some poor guy who had 50 res spare and decided to learn the basics of the Fade.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Most bulky guys aren't born big <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most bulky guys suffer from low self esteem, muscle dysmorphia, got picked on as kids, or simply couldn't excel at anything else in their life. Yes, life is just like NS.
I can fade. I'm not top level, but I can kill more than I die, and I can pressure marines enough to halt them. That still doesnt mean I enter a game of NS busting to go Fade. My buzz comes from the Team Win, not from breaking my personal K:D best. If it serves the team that I Fade, then I Fade. If they need chambers, then I make chambers. I don't waste my playing time trying to perfect something that I rarely need to use.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm here because it's unique and holds a different dynamic with the two vastly different teams, fairly decent balance, and RTS/FPS hybrid. But it's only a game. And if I find I'm having to "work" to enjoy it, or if I have to suck down abuse for losing the game not just for me but for a bunch of other people because I'm unable to devote significant amounts of time to it? I just won't bother. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wiiiiiiiiise words. I have yet to find a game that engages me as much as NS. I've got a stack of HL mods installed yet the only one I've played with any regularity has been NS. Commander/Team strategy is thrilling. The independent yet coordinated teamwork of Aliens gives an adrenaline rush. Nothing compares.
Savant's post immediately following the above quote is an excellent summary of the situation.
I'm going to spend my time as lerk, and doing a far more constructive job for my TEAM as opposed to trying to be the second coming as a fade. Yes, in time I will be a very VERY good fade, but in the meantime I will try to make my team win by the easiest means possible.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-MrGunner+Mar 27 2005, 03:19 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrGunner @ Mar 27 2005, 03:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Personally I find lerk to be way more fun to play then fade because as fade I can screw around a bit without having to worry about 1 shotgun blast killing me. Plus going 10-0 as lerk in the first 4 minutes of a scrim is a blast. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I find lerking fun because only one shotgun blast will bring you down. It's fun to literally fly around bullets and kill people, that's the rewarding part of NS for me.
NolSinklerOn the ClorfJoin Date: 2004-02-15Member: 26560Members, Constellation
Here's a relationship for you. The more user friendly something is, the easier something is. Another: The easier something is, the better you can be with it. The harder it is, the harder it is to get good.
The easier something is, the more it will unbalance the game. If the fade is made easy for NEW players to play, then imagine what skillful players can do...
How about win the game?
The ONLY thing we can do to stop all-powerful fades, is nerf them. This makes the better players slightly worse, and the worse players much worse.
What can we do to balance this? Nothing. If you want mid-game balance to be good, you have to look at the skillful players, and adjust to that. Because on pubs, the skill varies too much. We must balance to the more skilled players to get any results.
<!--QuoteBegin-NolSinkler+Mar 27 2005, 01:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NolSinkler @ Mar 27 2005, 01:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Here's a relationship for you. The more user friendly something is, the easier something is. Another: The easier something is, the better you can be with it. The harder it is, the harder it is to get good.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The easier something is, the more it will unbalance the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
False. Proof: The Onos and the Skulk are both easier than the fade. Do they unbalance the game?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the fade is made easy for NEW players to play, then imagine what skillful players can do... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Please refresh your memory to the impact/skill curve graphics that Grendel so kindly provided at the beginning of the thread. Note that making the fade easier to use in general has no effect on the impact of the top level players, only on the lower level players.
It is entirely possible to adjust skill levels required to play at lower levels without affecting what occur at higher skill levels. Just use some imagination. Combine buffs with nerfs. What happens if you lower rate of fire while upping damage? That's something that takes more skill to play, because it means you have less chances for error.
Comments
The more accurate description of the phenomenon, then, would be this:
It's possible for really amazing fades to turn the mid-game tide if the marines took down one or two nodes.
Depending on viewpoint, this statement may or may not affect whether you think this has any bearing on the original issue. I can see what you're thinking, and it's not crazy or anything. But flattening the fade skill curve is easier said (or graphed) than done.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Most people can manage 35 words per minute typing. I can do 60-80 at a push. That's with around 97% accuracy. That's 10+ keypresses per second, all in a specific sequence that's reactive to real time input. So don't tell me someone can't manage to switch between 2 slots with practice.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->First off, your example assumes a relatively calm and relaxed atmosphere. In games like this the atmosphere is anything but calm and relaxed. (and I *KNOW* that this is the case because I've played with you as Comm Grendel. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
However, the bigger flaw is that you are trying to compare a scripted output with a spontaneous output. Typing words is all about a memorized set of keystrokes that are the same for a given word every time it is used. In the game the keystrokes are never in the same order.
Furthermore, the number of simultaneous tasks a person is doing will directly affect their performance in those given tasks. It's obvious a person's accuracy level will be higher if they are doing one task as compared to a person doing 5 simultaneous tasks. This is why most people find playing marine is easier than alien since point and shoot is easier than having to control movements AND engage at melee range, AND avoid bullets, AND bite the target. Meanwhile your target can just stand there and fire at you, not doing anything more than pressing one fire button and slightly moving their mouse.
A key aspect is the load placed on the user, and the gameplay interface. There just aren't enough fingers/buttons to go around. You have the right hand working the mouse with the fire buttons, and the left hand working the direction keys and controlling jump. The HL weapon switch is clunky at best, and there is a slight delay when switching weapons.
However, it all comes down to the number of SIMULTANEOUS actions that a user is required to perform at any given time. The greater the number of simultaneous actions they must perform, the greater the skill required to carry out those actions. If we were talking about a marine class that required a wepon switch to use a class, then this wouldn't be as big an issue simply because of the nature of the marine class as a range fighter.
Conversely, the alien classes are melee fighters, and so even the slightest mistake can mean a major loss. The fade, as it stands now, requires too much skill to play at a level that is of any use to the alien team. Let me quote you from your first post in this thread:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>The unusually high skills required to take the role of Fade are harmful to both the popularity of the game and to gameplay balance.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with this statement, and it almost seems like you are going against your original statement just because you disagree with an aspect of my opinion. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
In the end I believe that it all comes down to blink, which is quite hard to use and master, coupled with the fact that one has to weapon switch in and out of blink mode to do any damage to marines. It's this area I think we need to focus on, not the fade's health or other attributes.
Regards,
Savant
I'd agree that blink forms a significant part of the problem, but I simply disagree that weapon switching is the major issue. It doesn't contradict my original assertion in the slightest.
Of all of them, its the one I believe most encourages a semi-accurate hit/run strategy, but I wonder how it would measure up to HA (adding Focus on top of a slower ROF, for instance).
We can agree to disagree on this point, but in speaking with people who don't play fade, and asking them WHY they don't play fade, the end result is always the same. "It's too hard to play" or "It's too much work". Mandatory weapon switching during combat is just one part of the bigger whole. Blink movement complexity, slow ground movement speed and no range weapons (before hive 3) are also significant contributing factors.
Even if we were to assign a bind strictly to blink, we would still have issues with fade complexity.
Perhaps we should be looking in a different direction though. Given the responses, instead of looking at what can be done to make the fade easier to play, perhaps we should first analyze what makes the fade hard to play. Once we reach that consensus, then we can look to overcome it.
Regards,
Savant
what a different time and place
Second, it's been at the top of the NS usefulness ladder for ages. Aliens NEED fades. Ok, so you can try to shuffle that fact around by nerfing/tweaking it, but that'd just completely whack over the balance again, something you'll want to avoid in a "final" version I assume?
There's plenty of stuff you can do outside the actual game:
People suggested making a better default config. Hud_fastswitch 1 and such.
Link/Advertise to fading articles/demo's on NSLearn, so that the people who want help but don't know where to get it are helped.
Some sort of decent manual/tutorial that explains what the fade does, and how he does it. Something simple of course, that tells players things like "Blink is your main ability. Use it to avoid getting hit while moving around the map, using hit and run tactics".
There's cool stuff enabled in this game for those players that are talented and practise enough. Joe Pubber 1.04 athmosphere fanatic may not be a good fade, he may never be. Are you going to alter the game to help him become good, or are you going to leave it up to him to work for it himself? Even if you don't help him, he could still gorge, skulk, lerk, or onos.
Whenever you force a player to go outside the game to play the game decently, you risk losing that player. This is especially true when you consider internet cafes and their limitations, and important when you consider their popularity overseas.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
There's cool stuff enabled in this game for those players that are talented and <b><i>practise enough</b></i>. Joe Pubber 1.04 athmosphere fanatic may not be a good fade, he may never be. Are you going to alter the game to help him become good, or are you going to leave it up to him to work for it himself? Even if you don't help him, he could still gorge, skulk, lerk, or onos. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(Emphasis added)
That's the exact point that's being addressed. The amount of practice/talent that it takes to be a reasonable fade is unreasonable for the average player.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you insist on requiring a player to be hardcore to play the game decently, you eventually find that only the hardcore play the game.
Do you want the NS player pool to stagnate or expand?
NS isn't dying by any stretch, but, from what I've read, it's not really expanding either. As the technology improves, more competitors and copiers are going to step forward, and they're going to be using newer technologies. If players find themselves discouraged because the most vital life-form on the alien side doesn't provide a reasonable return for the time spent using it, we may well find that they decide to simply drop NS and head for the competitors.
I also know that there is need for people on the team to stay skulk, and go gorge to drop improtant buildings and then go skulk again. Even though the fade as a unit is very important, as the hive as a building is, it is equally important for an alien team to have good skulks. The better the skulk the less pressure on the fade to perform, the less rts the marines have, and the sooner that skulk can drop the rt or hive or chambers.
Now, dont misunderstand me, the fade is very important, and the skill of the fade is very important. The skill curve is also pretty harsh. It is though because of the inaccesability of the fade (and the need for only 1-2 fades on a team) that people are actually inspired to take the time to become good. I am certain that if the fade required as much work as it does now to be as usueful, but you could get away with less work because of other circumstances, we wouldnt see as good fades around.
What's my point? Yes: the fade is not a unit anyone can/wants to play. Yes: the fade has a central role for the alien team. My point however is that I do not see the problem with this. There are four other roles that needs to be filled on the alien team, and these are, while perhaps not as glorious as the fades', just as important. It's like in american football, the guy who makes all the touchdowns get the glory, but without a good team who made it possible for him, he'd have made no difference.
I'm either getting owned by a redemp/regen/cara fade.
Or I can't handle one and I get killed by a camper.
DIE FADES DIE!
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif' /><!--endemo-->
So let's say you are playing as skulk and your team says they need a fade. By some bad fortune, the team's other fade had an untimely death. (let's say a lag spike killed them - a no fault death) You are the only one that has enough to go fade because the other person with enough just dropped the second hive. What do you do? Would you play fade, or would you not bother because you know you wouldn't be of any real use?
That's the problem here.
The alien teams needs ALL classes to be playable by ALL players because they may be called upon to play ANY of those classes at any given time. If resource donation was in the game then perhaps this would be different and people could donate their res to someone better skilled. However, that's not the case and it never will be based on dev comments.
So that means the public needs to be able to play the fade without it being overly difficult to do so.
Regards,
Savant
Correction: play CO, but don't use more than one upgrade from each chamber.
And don't do suicide runs.
Correction: play CO, but don't use more than one upgrade from each chamber.
And don't do suicide runs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, playing CO as a fade bound to Classic rules is much harder than fading in classic as the marines are grouped together more and on average will have more firepower during the game.
So let's say you are playing as skulk and your team says they need a fade. By some bad fortune, the team's other fade had an untimely death. (let's say a lag spike killed them - a no fault death) You are the only one that has enough to go fade because the other person with enough just dropped the second hive. What do you do? Would you play fade, or would you not bother because you know you wouldn't be of any real use?
That's the problem here.
The alien teams needs ALL classes to be playable by ALL players because they may be called upon to play ANY of those classes at any given time. If resource donation was in the game then perhaps this would be different and people could donate their res to someone better skilled. However, that's not the case and it never will be based on dev comments.
So that means the public needs to be able to play the fade without it being overly difficult to do so.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I totally agree with you. And my opinion on the Fade is that it is too god like in the hands of an expert and a waste of res for everyone else to evolve to.
We need to find a bit of a middle ground. I agree with another poster who said Blinking as the fade feeling like you are controlling a flying brick.
Heres my suggestion for blink. Totally remove the flying brick way of blinks and turn it into this: stealthy, guerilla warfare like footsoldier.
Assuming all other funcitions of the fade remain the same, when you use blink, you turn 100% invisible, move at roughly 2x normal walking speed, and make no footstep sounds. This effect only lasts as long as you hold down the fire button. As soon as you release it, you turn 100% visible with no delay. The key to makeing this work is the marines can have no way of detecting a blinking fade. not scanning or nearby obs will detect the fade if its blinking.
Playing fade will be like playing a really strong silenced, cloaked skulk. you pop into exsistence, swipe a few marines and disapear without a trace. What could be easier or more fun? The skill factor here is about energy conservation. if you run into a fray blinked, swipe a few times, and try to blink out, you might not makeit to the door if your energy runs out, you'll become visible again during your retreat and probably die.
My suggestion is based on my love for NS, we already have a flying class, called the lerk, we don't need a flying brick too. And we have a tank like class, the Onos. The thing we are missing is the super skulk class, 'heavy infantry' for aliens playing a bigger class should be easier, not harder.
Quoting for prosperity, I used to play fade when blinking was different meaning that it wasn't such a death trap to move into a bunch of marines if you knew your exit and timing, now with even more energy management and the fact you're shot at as you come and go as well... *shrugs*...I play this game for fun when I'm not working or doing university. I get a lot more fun out of generic skulking and learning to keep evolving to new marine tactics, and I get loads of fun out of gorging for the team. I long ago gave up trying to learn fade (or onos to a lesser extent, though the times they're needed is much much less than the fade, which I think is grendels point about it all) because I simply don't want to invest the limited time I have into something that is going to be dire to play for a significant period of my game playing life this year. By the time I am able to handle fades properly, through any more changes, I bet it'll be time to stop playing online games as frequently, if not NS all together.
This doesn't mean I wouldn't like to Fade, and don't feel that not having more than 6 hours a week to play a game (at most) for reasons of relaxation and fun should mean that I am not able to. People saying "well joe pubber can use the other classes" is a bit naive, especially when trying to state they're just as important. On pubs at least, a good fade will carry the game, and I really doubt anyone can deny that it doesn't happen frequently. A gorge will drop a hive and 3 DC/MC's...but that's hardly a skilled contribution to the game is it? If one person didn't do this another person could and would, it's almost a given in respect to time variable in each game. The fade, however, is an individually skilled unit that changes the course of games and carrys teams to victory. I certainly usually feel that, once a good fade is on the team, the job is almost done with some degree of certainty. You can feel the ease of the game increase as good fades evolve into the game at whatever point and take up the strain that advanced tech places on a skulk team. This isn't "teamwork" though, as much as it can be confused with it.
I am slowly learning to perfect my fade - I know the hit and run, but I'm not confident to the stage of blinking into a room, hitting a rine, blinking to the roof, doing a headcount, then blinking out. I CAN however flap into a room, bite 2-3 rines, and get out without taking too much damage as a lerk.
Combat lerk is good practice for fading, its just a shame the fade handling is dire. Handling plus invisible obstacles plus your typical lag means its damned hard to get to grips with CONFIDENTLY. As a lerk, you can swerve, glide, you name it. Even with lag and invisible obstacles, I've yet to get blocked on a wall. Blocked by another lifeform, yes, but not the environment.
Its one thing to say "practice", but most people are playing when they have free time. I do not intend to use my free time to start my own server, start cheats, and practice fading 101. I use my free time to PLAY the game, and I'm sure I'm not alone.
It might be different for other people, it would be different if I was back in Uni with a nice fat student grant and no need to work, but for those of us with jobs and half decent lives you just cant afford to start an empty server to "unwind".
Basic fading should be something easily "picked up" ingame. Yes, like all things it can be REFINED outside of the game (practice scrims with your mates, whatever) but it shouldn't be hard for a player to at least make an effective contribution.
Fades ARE the midgame of NS. They take it all the way to the end, where they are replaced by xeno skulks. Ability to use them should be instinctive and natural, and suitably rewarding to people who practice outside of the game.
Xeno skulks don't take over the role of the fade.
To your point of fading not being fun; it's the most rewarding and adrenaline pumping part of NS. The way you downplayed it makes me realize something.
You've been playing NS, for what? Several versions now? That's like a year of your life. A year of playing NS.
It could be 2-6 hours a week, but that's a minimum of 64 to 384 hours in one year? Come on, if you played any console game for 64 to 384 hours, you will have already beaten it at LEAST 1 time, and shorter games you will know it like a good book.
I find your lack of time argument weak. You have plenty of time, it's all an issue of management.
Now if you are telling us that you can't learn the fade in 64-384 hours, then honestly I think the problem lies with the player and NOT the fade.
Here's what really the issue with the fade is:
- The fade isn't fair. Only the best alien players go fade. If you don't have a good movement ability and fast reaction times, then you won't go fade because those who are good at fade will continue to go fade and dominate.
- Why don't new people learn to fade? Because if they screw up, they will be patronized by their entire alien team for "Losing the game". Just like the comm is blamed ever time the marines lose, the same goes for the fades. They have to do the killing, an important and difficult part of NS to do.
- So if people are complaining they aren't going fade enough, instead of blaiming the game, it's time to learn how to play it. "Novices Whine, Veterans Adapt" this is the true meaning here. This is about people who refuse to learn the game, dispite the fact that there are hundreds of other players can do what some can't do. And then this minority blames the game, because they know they have no case if they start blaming those who are good at the game for hogging the fade spots.
My advice to those who "suck terribly" at fading: Tuck in your T-Shirt, head over to the computer screen, and proceed to lose game after game as being fade, ignore the critism, and finally one fine day, you will be critizing some other player who is a poor fade.
It's not about total time spent that counts, it's about how you spend the time playing it when you do. If you don't challenge yourself, you aren't going to get better.
Most bulky guys aren't born big. They work themselves to become bulky. Do they spend their lives lifting to be big? Hell no, they only do it a few hours a week... but instead of doing 20 pushups, they do 4 sets of 6 bench presses. And they are huge for it.
NS is no different from the rest of reality.
You're absolutely right. Now, please explain to me why I should have to put in hours of work and put up with tons of abuse for very little results, and all just to play a game?
Here's the thing you're not getting, I'm not a hardcore player. I have no desire to be a hardcore player. I will never be among the top most skilled in NS, and I accept that. However, unless I'm willing to have the dedication of a hardcore player either in time or in accepting abuse for making my team (not just me, my team) lose I won't be able to play the fade. Not "won't be able to play it well" as with the other classes, but won't be able to play it at all. Savant has already explained however, why sometimes it'll be required that I do so.. except I can't.
No matter how many times its said, you don't seem to understand the point: If you require a player to be hardcore to play the game, sooner or later only the hardcore players will play.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now if you are telling us that you can't learn the fade in 64-384 hours, then honestly I think the problem lies with the player and NOT the fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the attitude of the hardcore player. The one who plays to "get better" in hopes of having fun in the future rather than simply playing to have fun now. You might have that kind of time, I don't. Yeah, if I dedicated all that time to specifically learning the fade, I'd probably be fairly decent.
You haven't yet explained to me why I should have to though. Why should the casual player be forced to devote their play-time in NS to specifically learning how to fade and taking abuse in the meantime in order to be able to play the class, not at an expert level, but simply well enough to survive and be of assistance to their team as opposed to a waste of resources?
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This is about people who refuse to learn the game, dispite the fact that there are hundreds of other players can do what some can't do. And then this minority blames the game, because they know they have no case if they start blaming those who are good at the game for hogging the fade spots.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you have the words minority and majority confused.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My advice to those who "suck terribly" at fading: Tuck in your T-Shirt, head over to the computer screen, and proceed to lose game after game as being fade, ignore the critism, and finally one fine day, you will be critizing some other player who is a poor fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. I won't.
The truth is, I won't be tucking in my T-shirt, because it doesn't go well with my tie and career. NS is not a career. It's not a job. It's not even a hobby. It's a game.
I'm here because it's unique and holds a different dynamic with the two vastly different teams, fairly decent balance, and RTS/FPS hybrid. But it's only a game. And if I find I'm having to "work" to enjoy it, or if I have to suck down abuse for losing the game not just for me but for a bunch of other people because I'm unable to devote significant amounts of time to it? I just won't bother.
I get enough fulfillment out of my life that I certainly don't need NS. It's fun icing, but that's all it is. If it's easier for me to stop playing as opposed to learning to play a required class well, then that's exactly what I'll do.
So no, I won't be criticizing people who are poor at the fade. I simply won't be here. The sad thing is, there are a lot more of people like me than there are people like you. Now if that's the direction you want the game to take, a small community of very dedicated players as opposed to a large community of all types of players, I suppose that's your decision, and we simply have nothing more to discuss.
While a person should (and usually will) get better at something when they practise it, they have to be able to DO IT first. For many people, they are unable to play to the minimum level of competence required to build on those skills.
It's like throwing a person behind the wheel of a car and telling them to 'practise'. Don't worry if you keep getting into accidents, you'll get the hang of it sooner or later. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Sorry, that just doesn't cut it.
Let's be honest here. Most people who play NS aren't wimps that cringe from a challenge. However, most people who play NS do so in their spare time for FUN, and don't have the desire or inclination to speed weeks 'training' to play a fringe class in a game that they only play occasionally. This is precisely why the marine team door is continually stacked - a person doesn't need to train like mad to play as marine.
In my opinion, to suggest practise as the 'solution' to the fade is just plain arrogant. People shouldn't have to practise to be able to PLAY the fade, it should be playable with no practise at all. While practise should make an 'average' player better at something, a person shouldn't have to 'practise' just to gain a BASIC level of functioning. Can you imagine if the skulk was that way and we forced players to leap-bite all of their kills? There would be no game because people wouldn't be willing to take the time to master something just to PLAY the class, let alone get better at it.
If people like a 'complex' fade, then it will need to be marginalized so that it is NOT required to be used for aliens to win. Then people can choose to pass on it and they are not left out.
Regards,
Savant
Heres another 'WILD' idea. Make it so that when you die as a fade, lerk or gorge, maybe even Onos, you get a freebie to go to that class again at no res cost. There will be some restrictions though.
If you die as a fade within 1 minute after evolving to fade, you can go fade again for free.each 30 seconds after the first minute adds 10% to the res cost to evolve again.
for Example, you go fade, you die in less than a minute, you respawn, you look in your menu and you can go fade again for free. This is a limited offer, if you choose any other class, your free fade is nulled and you have to pay full price next time.
example 2: you go fade and die after 3 minutes.
First minute 1:00 free
1:30 cost 5 res
2:00 cost 10 res
2:30 cost 15 res
3:00 cost 20 res to go fade again.
eventually after you lived longer than 6:00 minutes and you die, you'll have to pay full price, 50 res to go fade again.
In order to really balance this situation, you'll have to greatly increase gestation time to put a long time gap between suicide fades. Sure they might do a bit of damage, but the long period while they gestate again will keep them out of the action for a long time. This idea will keep more higher life forms on the battle field. It will also encourage higher lifeforms to stop being so cowardly.
I think this idea would solve a lot of problems without affecting balance, since good fades never die anyway, and the noob fades will get many many extra chances to try again, except the fades who die will be stuck in the respawn cycle and gestating more time than they are fighting. But it won't be a major loss to the team if a fade dies, just a delay.
If we implement this, then Fades need to earn no r4k during the first 5 minutes or something.
Xeno skulks don't take over the role of the fade.
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Make no mistake, they do not take over the role of hit n run killer, they DO however take over the role of MOST USEFUL UNIT.
Against a coordinated marine turtle, most fades are toast. If you don't hit a wall blinking out of the turtle, you'll probably hit a member of your own team or better yet a marine who's been waiting to block you.
Xeno skulks do not need to worry about this, and tooled up with Cara and Celer they become the endgame of NS. I've not seen one marine endgame stand up to concerted Xeno. You can use the Fades to mop up after. Skulk missle is absolutely free, Fades are 50 res a pop and worthless against a pack of rines with their backs to the wall.
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To your point of fading not being fun; it's the most rewarding and adrenaline pumping part of NS
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No, its not fun. You have 5-7 other people screaming at you to save the game, every marine on the map wants your head, and if you die your entire team will call you a retard. No, fading is not fun. It might be for some players who swan into a server, demand chambers, then state they're fading, but for a player like me fading is certainly a last resort, its at the end of a long line.
Right now, I am dedicatedly playing Diablo II, Red Alert 2, and NS. I am IDLY playing MGS3, WC3, SC, HW, Starship Troopers, and NWN. I am RARELY playing, SW:Galactic Battlegrounds, BF1942 plus about 8 mods, SoFII, AvP2, and GTA:SA.
I will play whichever I wish to unwind with at the time. Some I have completed, some I have not completed. Some are for fun, some for relaxation, some are played so that I may finish them and play the sequel.
Looking at my shelf, I have over 100 PC games, easily. I've about 2 dozen PSX games which I keep out of nostalgia, about 2 dozen PS2 games because they're fun, and about a dozen Dreamcast games because they're the only ones worth buying. I another corner I have an Atari Jaguar with the 3 games worth owning for it.
I call myself the average gamer. I cycle through a lot of games, and do not have time to dedicate several weeks of my life getting to be an exceptional fade player just so I can earn enough of a "reputation" to Fade without the team yelling at me.
I have played with a few damned good fades (pub and clan, thx) and even then they have everyone saying "gg game's over" whenever they join aliens. The alien team expects them to win all the more because they're "big names".
Fading is NOT fun at all. It may be different for those of us in little tribes of 6, or those of us who don't really care about the other players and are only in it for the opportunity to "pwnzor teh pubber n00bs", but for the rest of us looking for a team game its NOT fun. I do not enjoy having someone waltz into my game, declare he will be fade, then proceed to whine for chambers so he can fade and enjoy HIS game.
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Now if you are telling us that you can't learn the fade in 64-384 hours, then honestly I think the problem lies with the player and NOT the fade.
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64-384 hours, most of which are gorge because you can't "learn" fade until endgame when you've a bucketload of res and noone cares if you die. Most of which are spent as skulk because you're doing Xeno runs or you've no res after dropping a hive plus chambers. If I want fun, I go lerk, because its cheap, noone screams at you, and there's no real pressure on you.
Further, I would not touch CO with a ten foot barge pole, and I'm not wasting valuable Classic time trying to play it.
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and finally one fine day, you will be critizing some other player who is a poor fade.
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I'd like to amend that to "finally one fine day, you will be an asshat". You shouldn't be criticising other "poor" players. You should be helping them. Persistently going fade to the detriment of the team, ignoring criticism or comments, will eventually turn you into an arrogant smacktard. Yes, you too can join servers and demand the noobs drop DC for you. You too can delude yourself into thinking you have earned the right to cuss out some poor guy who had 50 res spare and decided to learn the basics of the Fade.
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Most bulky guys aren't born big
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Most bulky guys suffer from low self esteem, muscle dysmorphia, got picked on as kids, or simply couldn't excel at anything else in their life. Yes, life is just like NS.
I can fade. I'm not top level, but I can kill more than I die, and I can pressure marines enough to halt them. That still doesnt mean I enter a game of NS busting to go Fade. My buzz comes from the Team Win, not from breaking my personal K:D best. If it serves the team that I Fade, then I Fade. If they need chambers, then I make chambers. I don't waste my playing time trying to perfect something that I rarely need to use.
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I'm here because it's unique and holds a different dynamic with the two vastly different teams, fairly decent balance, and RTS/FPS hybrid. But it's only a game. And if I find I'm having to "work" to enjoy it, or if I have to suck down abuse for losing the game not just for me but for a bunch of other people because I'm unable to devote significant amounts of time to it? I just won't bother.
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Wiiiiiiiiise words. I have yet to find a game that engages me as much as NS. I've got a stack of HL mods installed yet the only one I've played with any regularity has been NS. Commander/Team strategy is thrilling. The independent yet coordinated teamwork of Aliens gives an adrenaline rush. Nothing compares.
Savant's post immediately following the above quote is an excellent summary of the situation.
I'm going to spend my time as lerk, and doing a far more constructive job for my TEAM as opposed to trying to be the second coming as a fade. Yes, in time I will be a very VERY good fade, but in the meantime I will try to make my team win by the easiest means possible.
I find lerking fun because only one shotgun blast will bring you down. It's fun to literally fly around bullets and kill people, that's the rewarding part of NS for me.
Another: The easier something is, the better you can be with it. The harder it is, the harder it is to get good.
The easier something is, the more it will unbalance the game. If the fade is made easy for NEW players to play, then imagine what skillful players can do...
How about win the game?
The ONLY thing we can do to stop all-powerful fades, is nerf them. This makes the better players slightly worse, and the worse players much worse.
What can we do to balance this? Nothing. If you want mid-game balance to be good, you have to look at the skillful players, and adjust to that. Because on pubs, the skill varies too much. We must balance to the more skilled players to get any results.
Another: The easier something is, the better you can be with it. The harder it is, the harder it is to get good.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed.
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The easier something is, the more it will unbalance the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
False. Proof: The Onos and the Skulk are both easier than the fade. Do they unbalance the game?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the fade is made easy for NEW players to play, then imagine what skillful players can do... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please refresh your memory to the impact/skill curve graphics that Grendel so kindly provided at the beginning of the thread. Note that making the fade easier to use in general has no effect on the impact of the top level players, only on the lower level players.
It is entirely possible to adjust skill levels required to play at lower levels without affecting what occur at higher skill levels. Just use some imagination. Combine buffs with nerfs. What happens if you lower rate of fire while upping damage? That's something that takes more skill to play, because it means you have less chances for error.