Mid-game Balance

DragonMech · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Quaunaut @ Mar 21 2005, 04:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Puh-leeze.

I was up to decent fade skill level in 3 days- if anything, its easier to master than the skulk, if you ask me.

People just need common sense.

Man I'm sounding jaded today.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Well Quan, that's just you. I don't know anyone else who has picked up fading with less than weeks of practice. I've been practiing fading for over a monthe now and it's still very risky for me to go fade on an ns_map.

Slink · March 2005

just throwing in my 2 bits here. I'm goin with grendel. a bad fade is worthless. a decent fade is useful, for a little bit. a good fade is unstoppable, and an elite fade is god.

make it so that a bad fade is worthless, a decent fade is <b>helpful</b>, a good fade is unstoppable, and an elite fade is god.

hmm, perhaps then pub nubs could then begin to understand how NS plays at a competitive level? because the game would no longer be drastically different? hmm, perhaps <u>B</u>ringing the p<u>U</u>b and clan <u>S</u>cene together? be kinda neat if it did.

Church · March 2005

I don't want elite Fades to be unstoppable on their own, but then, I don't think they are in higher level play. Aliens work together in clan play, witht he lerk gassing and distracting, and the then the Fade mopping up. Fades just seem completely unstoppable on their onw in pubs because the level of skill varies too much in pubs. Fade can do decently solo, but in order to be GODLY they need a bit of support. I just don't think the fade should always be the one *receiving* the support though.

Minstrel_Knight · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (monopolowa @ Mar 21 2005, 02:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
good players dont use scripts at all
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Are you joking?

Church · March 2005

What he means is that good players don't use script to blink or leap for them.

Minstrel_Knight · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Mar 21 2005, 06:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> What he means is that good players don't use script to blink or leap for them.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Get this news to the good players immediately.

monopolowa · March 2005

ok, let me rephrase: good players aren't hurt when they play on servers with scripts blocked; they dont NEED scripts to be good, and they dont need help with leap/bite, bunnyhopping, or whatever

Minstrel_Knight · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (monopolowa @ Mar 21 2005, 06:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> ok, let me rephrase: good players aren't hurt when they play on servers with scripts blocked; they dont NEED scripts to be good, and they dont need help with leap/bite, bunnyhopping, or whatever  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
I agree that good players can still easily dominate on block scripts servers, especially since they tend to be bastions for the unskilled. However you should realize that the vast majority of good players still use scripts in some form whether it be bunny hop, pistol, or blink conservation.

torque · March 2005

I think the way I would put it is that it's actually almost to the level of comming - when I go on pubs with teamwork-oriented players, I always hear "So, uh... who's gonna fade?" and rarely do I hear immediate "I'll do it"s except from the clanners who have spent enough time on it.

I'm not sure making tinkering with the fade and then giving the marines a nonspecific counter is that great an idea (sg/hmg being the current counter), but perhaps blink could cost less energy, or swipe does less damage but hits faster? One of the problems I see with fades is that they blink in and miss their initial strike, so they try to stick around for a second hit to make the attack worthwhile - and then wind up getting hosed in that precious extra second it takes to recover.

Or maybe the swipe should count as two hits (with the same recovery time)? The first strike, up to down, does the primary damage (but not as much as the current one), while the second strike is horizontal, with a wider horizontal range but less damage.

digz: I imagine it has to do with the time; by 5 minutes, marines should have some sort of tech upgrade - weapons, phase, whatever - that makes things harder on skulks (which, though faster tha marines, still take awhile to get across the map). Gorges take up too much res to set up barriers of OCs, lerks die too quickly as forward offensive units, and onos not only takes 75 res, but moves far too slowly and needs a lot of support to be useful (unless he's just busting a locked hive).

Grendel · March 2005

I have a number of comments to make on the above, but I've just got home from the clubs and my choices are:

a) Stay up, make observations that may or may not be met with derision, either way get no props and still have to argue the same case with several others tomorrow

Or

b) Leave it till tomorrow and get laid now.

I chose mp_getlaid 1

So I'll take this up tomorrow with some kind of giant Q&A post.

BTW, thanks for almost everyone's efforts in trying to make this a useful thread which may result in a constructive resolution. Reasonable community based discussions FTW.

You guys keep making me think that the human race has a chance. Damn you with your unexpected displays of open mindedness. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' />

fanatic · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Minstrel Knight @ Mar 22 2005, 12:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (monopolowa @ Mar 21 2005, 06:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> ok, let me rephrase: good players aren't hurt when they play on servers with scripts blocked; they dont NEED scripts to be good, and they dont need help with leap/bite, bunnyhopping, or whatever </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I agree that good players can still easily dominate on block scripts servers, especially since they tend to be bastions for the unskilled. However you should realize that the vast majority of good players still use scripts in some form whether it be bunny hop, pistol, or blink conservation.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
In USA, yes. I don't know of a single skilled European player that uses scripts, simply because all our tournaments use mp_bs 1.

Minstrel_Knight · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (fanatic @ Mar 21 2005, 08:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> In USA, yes. I don't know of a single skilled European player that uses scripts, simply because all our tournaments use mp_bs 1.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
And they say Europe is progressive.

MrGunner · March 2005

A decent fade will last a lot longer then a decent lerk will. Everyone complains about the fade but a lerk dies in about 1/3 the bullets and is useless against anything other then early game marines, or inattentive players. Yet a lerk can be just as important in winning a game as a fade.

PS: Oh em gee I can hit a button faster then you +skill to the max lawlz.

InquisitiveIdiot · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>b) Leave it till tomorrow and get laid now.

I chose mp_getlaid 1</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>I don't believe you. I demand a replay clearly demonstrating this in action.

Make sure to give us a good look at your teammate's gameplay as well.

GoDlol · March 2005

The fade doesnt need a nerf, the way it stands is how it has stood in a while, the only nerf that i would give to the fade would be to fix it +duck hitbox issue, but nerfing the way it swipes, or anything like that is just stupid.

And to the scripting issue, I used to use scripts, but now dont because I feel that I am not restricted to what servers I can play on and know that I am cooler then mrgunner because my finger is faster then his.

MrGunner · March 2005

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /> WELL I CAN GET KNIFED BETTER THEN YOU!

Savant · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Mar 21 2005, 07:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I believe that the skill requirements for the Fade are the fulcrum upon which the entire balance of NS rests.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>I tend to agree, and while I don't want to get into possible solutions off the bat, let's take a closer look...

We all can remember the 'early' fade of 1.04 days gone by when it used to have acid rocket at the second hive. This was usually a game ender for marines since they would be hard pressed to counter it. I believe the reason for the strength of fade was not in the acid rocket itself, but was in fact the EASE OF USE of the fade.

Lets be honest here, acid rocket is point and shoot, much like a gun. It was easy to use and most people got the hang of it fairly easily.

Fast forward to the 'weapon shuffle' and you have many people who don't play fade anymore because the skill required to use it is beyond their ability, OR the skill required to use it is just too much effort. Let's be honest here, many of us play for fun. If something is too much 'work' to play then it stops being fun to play and becomes a chore. It's like you said:

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If player classes are frustrating to play (and getting spat out by both teams and insulted is not fun), then people will not have the incentive to play. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

While blink did give the fade a new 'dimension', it also raised the difficulty level tenfold. This tends to be one of the reasons that public games can be so unpredictable, without a person skilled enough to play fade, the alien team will fall quickly. (the same holds true on the marine team for the commander - but that's another thread)

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>What I <i>am</i> suggesting is that if the current skill curve of the fade was altered, it would both promote more enjoyable public play and ensure that the competitive community gets what it needs, i.e. a steady supply of decent fades. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>While I agree with you, I don't see it happening. Why?

By nature, the shift in making the fade a 'melee' fighter presents an inherently high level of difficulty. Any attempt to make it easier would likely make fades that much more unstoppable in competitive games.

My thoughts?

Perhaps we need to rethink the fade, and consider whether a 'melee-based' fade can ever be balanced for pub/clan play.

Just for the sake of discussion, what if we made the fade a 'range' fighter? Put acid rocket in slot 1, swipe in slot 3 and metab in slot 4. That would give pubbers an 'easy' option, but still give clanners the strength of swipe in slot 3. While metab would be missed at hive 2, fades can move pretty quick back to a hive. Considering that they would now be primarily a range fighter, they wouldn't need that out-of-hive healing as much. Once hive 2 drops and blink is available, there is a 2 out of 3 chance that D chambers have been dropped and regen is available. (not to mention that they would be that much closer to any given hive for healing)

I think an easy to play fade would go a long way in making the alien team more balanced overall.

regards,

Savant

Dr_aaagh · March 2005

IMHO fades are in general balanced, only nub marines that go around in tiny groups have a problem with them.
Dont go nerfing NS just because you cant fade - thats what combat is for - PRACTICE.

Maian · March 2005

I agree with Grendel. One of the most frustrating things in the game is when your team doesn't have a competent fade. It's like marines playing with an incompetent commander.

Yes, fade shouldn't be easy to play, but there's a BIG DIFFERENCE between learning through hard practice and everyone telling you "omg noob never fade again". That's the key point Grendel is making. So either make the fade a bit easier, or make the fade less important.

Apos · March 2005

I have to admit: every time I play aliens, about the only thing I care about that has any effect on winning I can see is getting a kickass fade. I even join teams knowing who is a good fade and will simply own up the other team when it is time to break out teh fade.

It probably shouldn't be like this. The fade is pretty much the ONLY unit in the entire game that can survive and pwon up a game without any support or teamwork whatsoever. Of course, if you nerf the fade, then you'll hear howls of anger from every corner. We may well be stuck with fades.

But again, I have to admit: unless aliens simply destroy the marines to begin with, the game really does most of the time turn on whether or not l33t fades appear in a timely fashion.

mr_drug_lord · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 22 2005, 12:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Fast forward to the 'weapon shuffle' and you have many people who don't play fade anymore because the skill required to use it is beyond their ability, OR the skill required to use it is just too much effort. Let's be honest here, many of us play for fun. If something is too much 'work' to play then it stops being fun to play and becomes a chore. It's like you said:
 </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
or have **** comps that will not allow them to fade reliably and control to the best of their ability

TheGivingTree · March 2005

Please direct me to these servers that have no players playing as fades because of the skill required. I haven't seen a server yet that dosn't have a fade or 2 that cranks up 40+ kills. I just don't understand the whole idea of basing the entire balance of ns on 1 single alien class. I also don't understand how having a class that can EASILY get 60+ kills in a game is seen as being balanced. I can't count how many times I have seen good marines with shotguns/hmg ( grouped ) go against a single fade and not even be able to take it down which if you add up all the cost of res doubles if even triples the amount of a fade. That's only counting the group he killed their not the other marines throughout the game with MAYBE dying once. Why not nerfing the fade and buffing the other aliens to make up for it? There is a fine line between balance and skill and the fade steps far beyond it. My idea of NS was teamwork and knowledge of the game ( strats, knowing the map, ect. ) not how well a person can sit on his computer and practing being a fade for days and weeks to win the game for aliens and yeah I know the whole idea is to practice and get better but like I said before the limit of how good a person can get with the fade destroys the balance in NS and makes the game less enjoyable when they can single handled turn the tide of the game with ease.

I'm also tired of hearing how shotguns stop fades, anyone that says this obviously never went up against a good fade. Notice how the fade is pretty much out of the shotguns range most of the time and he moves so fast is almost impossible to tell where he is going so you can't prejudge where to fire like a skulk so usually the first shot you make with the sg misses, maybe not completly but not enough to actually do any damage, then he swipes you once or twice and runs away before you can even get your second shot in and well now hes hundreds of feet away and healing while your near death. Also having 2 or 3 other marines with your never seem to really help UNLESS the fade tries to run and gets stuck in the walls which pretty much seems to be the only REAL anti fade tactic in the game as of yet. Most the time when people are in groups and are aiming at the fade miss because he moves to fast ( obviously ) or since your in a group most of your bullets are going into the marine that the fade flew into and swiping making your shot completly useless, and since most rooms are so small and confined its really hard to spread out and get enough room to get a good shot in and if you do spread out your not close enough to actuallyget a good shot in with the SG since it spreads so thats even less damage your gonna give the fade. Even if your in a big room now that gives him alot of ceiling space to fly up and down with making it even harder to shoot him. This is just a single fade, throw in a lerker to shoot some spores and that ever lovly dog that always follows the dear fade to sneak some extra kills in while everyones focusing on the fade and its gg marines. If a single fade can be so deadly to the entire marine team imagine what happens when the aliens use team work as well, it would be almost impossible for the marines to ever win. Everyone says use team work marines! its the oly way to win! yeah well the aliens win now without using teamwork and when they actually do its unstopable. People act like teamwork is marine only but its not.

SmoodCroozn · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dr aaagh @ Mar 21 2005, 10:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Dont go nerfing NS just because you cant fade - thats what combat is for - PRACTICE. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I love how when you challenge a popular opinion, people automatically assume that you SUCK at it.

Anyway, I'll have to agree with 2 of 8 by making the fade more dependent on teamwork.

I think another part of the problem is R4K. This system benefits fades greatly, but leaves the other classes behind. If it takes a skulk to parasite, a lerk to spore, a marine enough for a fade to get swipes, I think all of them should be rewarded.

As for solutions, I'm debating on changing blink in some radical new direction. I suggest blink turn into a charge-like attack, except it works like blink, meaning it only works when you have the button held down. This means you can't "fly" into places, you'll be bound to the ground.

Yes it is making the fade weaker in some aspects, but even as the aliens are supposed to be an individual team, teamwork still should be needed to win. Otherwise, we might as well play Counter-Strike.

Nadagast · March 2005

I really disagree... I think Fading really isn't that hard at all, you just have to be a tiny bit smart. That's pretty much it...

75% not being retarded
25% blink swipe skills

TOmekki · March 2005

the first thing to learn as a fade is the blinking. it doesnt matter if u cant hit marines that well as long as you stay moving and know when to run away. the mere presence of the fade creates tension amongst the marines.

ps: while sometimes placed inconveniently in your escape path, skulks and lerks are the fade's best friends.

Mustang · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SnO0Py @ Mar 21 2005, 02:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Could you post a link to those demos?  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
you can get the demos at the terror site <a href='http://www.Team-Terror.net' target='_blank'>http://www.Team-Terror.net</a>

Should be on our front page

Maian · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Mar 22 2005, 04:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I really disagree... I think Fading really isn't that hard at all, you just have to be a tiny bit smart. That's pretty much it...

75% not being retarded
25% blink swipe skills  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
It's one thing to say that and another to get it into the newbie minds - and you can't blame newbies for not practicing when practically everyone is cursing them out whenever they fade.

im_lost · March 2005

I haven't read all of this thread, just the first two pages, but i figured I would add this in. I have played NS since 1.03 came out. Since the release of 2.0, I have gone fade once (not counting the few times that I have used it for acid rocket spam). I understand what needs to be done to be successful as a fade about as much as is possible without actually playing it, but like Grendel said, I don't feel like putting forth the effort to become a good fade, especially when I know I will be useful by putting up a hive, or going lerk or onos (if there isn't a hive to put up).

Church · March 2005

If you're really that bad, I suppose combat can help you learn a bit, but really, I took a break from 1.04 to like 3.0 beta 2 or 3, and so I didn't know how ot use the new blink at all for a while. But, I tried, even on NS maps, and I didn't find people bitching at me that much. Sure I'm wasn't a newbie (I still remember how to play, and lots of skulks from 1.04 still applied, for example) but I didn't know how to blink-swipe at all. I got better because I liked being the class that can pwn all the marines :-p so I practiced.

But I think it's less practice and more having a good config file that lifted me out of bad fade into mediocre fade status. started toying around with blink scripts, and that helped a bit, but my energy management was horrid, and then I learned about tapping blink. Then I thought more about it and I started using my mousewheel to switch between weapons easily, and blink-swipe suddenly became MUCH easier. Not having to rely on my left hand to switch between blink and swipe means it's one less thing for me to concentrate on (so I can concentrate on moving, ducking, etc) and I ca tell you I'd suck horribly using the default controls.

MrBen · March 2005

Never known a good fade who scripts. Ever.

Mid-game Balance

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