Top level fades have almost infinite energy anyhow, so moving it to the jump key isn't going to make them any more unkillable.
It just means nublets only have to worry about meta/swipe switching and not hitting walls. Lerk flight is generally a tapping affair with the occasional period of gliding, and it works very well indeed - people get used to it fairly easily.
It would be very easy to test anyway, you wouldn't even need to alter the engine at all, just set up a PT server and make people use that jump/blink bind thing. Couple of rounds later and you'd have enough feedback to decide if its worth further testing or not.
<!--QuoteBegin-comrade+Mar 29 2005, 01:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (comrade @ Mar 29 2005, 01:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-im lost+Mar 29 2005, 01:21 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (im lost @ Mar 29 2005, 01:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Mar 28 2005, 10:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Mar 28 2005, 10:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> By the way you can already hotwire blink onto the space bar, it's not hard to do <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It requires a script that switches to blink, activates it, and switches back, though. It also means that lastinv will take you to blink, rather than metabolize, swipe, or whatever else you would like to switch to. This means that it still isn't as convenient to use as a built-in function, and new players probably aren't going to start off using scripts. So, it isn't the same thing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> no, you can make a script that remembers your lastinv <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't forget <a href='http://members.cox.net/flaming.june/form' target='_blank'>my contribution</a>
no, you'd just always blink, isn't that the idea? But we're talking about the fade here...if you want to get up somewhere then you can blink to it anyway. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Church+Mar 29 2005, 11:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Mar 29 2005, 11:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In other words...you can't jump (and by extension, you can't bhop either) as a Fade. So much for energy conservation. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Simultaneous meta and blink should make it pretty easy to conserve energy.
The 2.0 fade's blink was pure evil it just ran really fast and marines had a hard time hitting you, the best way to use it was to jump then blink and crouch and you were practically invincible.
I really like the blink now it's very easy to use and when you take celerity and cara which I always do it's easy to meta while blinking on a straight I hardly every run out of energy the point is to click once until you hit the floor then blink again. Only problem is that you get nailed very easily when your blinking now otherwise it's cool <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The fade doesn't need energy conservation it needs to be how it was described in the manual it was called a Fade because it appears and dissapears. I say it should either cloak while blinking or be able to go through players , structures , railing doors etc NOT walls that would just be unfair.
<!--QuoteBegin-im lost+Mar 30 2005, 03:21 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (im lost @ Mar 30 2005, 03:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Church+Mar 29 2005, 11:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Mar 29 2005, 11:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In other words...you can't jump (and by extension, you can't bhop either) as a Fade. So much for energy conservation. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Simultaneous meta and blink should make it pretty easy to conserve energy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Give me 2 hives and I'll play with my feet <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Thats the key - energy conservation through meta switching, which also heals. Sounds like the sort of thing fades need to learn in order to survive, so its win win.
If you give the fade simultaneous meta and blink, then you'd make high level players almost invincible. Then you'd have to nerf the fade, which would make it just as hard for beginning players to learn how to fade properly.
I don't think that the solution is to make fades stronger, but to make them weaker and cheaper. Regardless of how powerful you make the fade, newbies will still die very often while learning how to use it. Then they have to wait for 50 more res to fade again. The problem is that the fade is a big required risk. If you don't have any fades by midgame, you'll lose. There is no other lifeform that can substitute for the fade. If you make the aliens less dependant on fades, then the whole team doesn't have to rely on the fade to dominate, so newbies don't have a huge responsibility on their shoulders, so they won't get discouraged. I'm sure that this has been said before, but I won't read through 17 pages to find it.
Also, newbies can learn how to fade through combat. Everytime you die, you can refade quickly, so you can learn from your mistakes without having to wait several minutes for another 50 res.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
they can't learn fade by combat.
They get over 3 upgrades and get spoiled. I myself no longer upgrade more then 3 things in combat on any lifeform to make sure I don't get spoiled and down my skill
<!--QuoteBegin-DC Darkling+Mar 30 2005, 03:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DC Darkling @ Mar 30 2005, 03:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> they can't learn fade by combat.
They get over 3 upgrades and get spoiled. I myself no longer upgrade more then 3 things in combat on any lifeform to make sure I don't get spoiled and down my skill <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, I get meta, cara, regen, cele, and focus, so I'm only one upgrade over the limit. Remember that combat fades have to face jetpackers and heavy weapons more often than classic fades. Also, the skills that you need to succeed in combat, like learning blinking, blink-swiping, mid air meta, hitting JPs, etc all apply in classic. It's really easy to make the transition.
<!--QuoteBegin-Westwardd+Mar 30 2005, 09:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Westwardd @ Mar 30 2005, 09:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Thats why you get only one upgrade of each chamber to simulate Classic play in an attempt to better your game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Or you could consider it a game, not a practice session.
Or you could do both <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> As long as you can get to fade without using more than the "classic" restrictions, and do well against marines that for all intents and purposes are reaching levels of high tech and "comm" support, then you can use it as training.
Or you can say to hell with it and just play it as the seperate entity it is <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Still...doesn't mean you can't use it as intense training if you let it
<!--QuoteBegin-Ahnteis+Mar 30 2005, 08:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ahnteis @ Mar 30 2005, 08:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Westwardd+Mar 30 2005, 09:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Westwardd @ Mar 30 2005, 09:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Thats why you get only one upgrade of each chamber to simulate Classic play in an attempt to better your game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Or you could consider it a game, not a practice session. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Just because you can use Combat as practice, doesn't mean you have to all of the time. Practice if you want, play if you want, go crazy one round and try to be a cloak fade, whatever the hell you feel like. The point is that the option is open to use Combat as practice.
Regardless, my main point still stands. You can use combat to learn the primary skills that you need to have to fade well. It's easy to adapt to the upgrade model in classic, after you have acquired those skills.
Having cara + regen just means that you'll be a little more reckless, which is easily corrected. It doesn't completely spoil your game.
Fades have undergone an interesting change from the start of NS. Blink was instantenous, some early versions presented problems for blinking fades getting stuck, and fades had 2 long range attacks. Acid rockets were stronger and were available around hive 2, so a lot of clan matches were focused primarily on one of two things: Deny the aliens a second hive, which could very easily fail due to the fact that the marines were forced to babysit 3 strategic locations (2 hives and their base), or the 5 minute jetpack rush (which almost always worked).
Needless to say, the dynamics of the fade has changed considerably over the course of time. Fades are less of a long-range fighter and, in my opinion, have become something more of a larger, more durable version of a skulk.
There are two issues I will address in this post: the current focus of "marine teamwork, alien skill" and the learning curve issue. (Edit: I lied. I can talk about balance another day <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
1) Like most good mods, NS has evolved to the point where there is a significant difference between average pub play and clan-level gameplay. I cannot claim to be an expert of the fade any longer, but from what I remember of the beta 2.0 testing, the third ability of the fade was not a gamebreaking ability of the fade. It's blink that's the problem.
With marine mobility having been hampered after bunnyhopping was removed, the best way a marine can save himself besides some limited degree of dodging is aiming well. This can become extremely hard against fades with celerity and the blink ability. The degree to which alien speed plays a factor in whether or not a marine has died has been upped since the creation of this mod. I have had the same computer since beta 1 of this mod, and my frusteration level with the fade is not so much their teleportation ability, but my lack of being able to get away. In a straight on group firefight, most aliens can't survive--but it is precisely their abilities that let them move fast enough to kill marines and/or escape that makes them so awesome and lets them throw off even the best of players. I have seen few mods where players can legit-ly (without bunnyhopping) move as fast as they can in NS, and most of those mods were focused more on capture-the flag style teamplay.
You no longer have to be awesome at acid rocket to kill mass marines--you just have to be able to switch from claws to blink well enough and use them well enough. The problem basically boils down to one of hand-eye coordination, and using one's senses. Ideally, everyone would have great coordination, but this is not the case, and is almost certainly hampered by machine configuration.
Which brings me to my last point: The best reason I can think of for bunny hopping being nerfed for marines is because marines were supposed to be easy to play out of the box. A skilled commander could mould recruits into a competent, organized force. Aliens have such a large discrepancy between being average and being "uberskulk" precisely because of people's ability to utilize speed to their advantage. And sometimes it isn't their fault (old machines, old age, etc). And consider this: IF NS ever makes the leap to source, I bet a lot of people will become bad at fade again precisely because of a framerate drop, but as time progresses and people upgrade their computers and new blood becomes interested in the mod (along with old timers like me just dissapearing), the "feel" of the mod will shift towards speed being taken advantage again.
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Mar 31 2005, 02:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Mar 31 2005, 02:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Regardless, my main point still stands. You can use combat to learn the primary skills that you need to have to fade well. It's easy to adapt to the upgrade model in classic, after you have acquired those skills.
Having cara + regen just means that you'll be a little more reckless, which is easily corrected. It doesn't completely spoil your game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Try this, go to some random CO server and get as many upgrades as you can, then play as a fade. The next day do the opposite, join a CO server and play as a fade with 1-2 upgrades. I would bet that most players that download a fresh copy of NS and join a CO server learn very little about how to use the lifeforms correctly.
The other large glaring flaw is that in combat BOTH sides play differently, so a combat fade is going to get a bit of culture shock versus classic marines. A combat can choose his upgrade chambers, and can get all three relatively quickly. In classic, this is not the case. In classic, you have to cope with MC versus early HMGs, you have to cope with SC first. Combat won't help with this, due to the way each player chooses their upgrades.
Further, the biggest killers of fades are walls or greed. Combat is no different from classic on this front. Its not going to alleviate the problem any, at most it can only help slightly refine existing technique.
On the other topic of Blink on Space Bar, top level fades are usually top level BECAUSE they can switch with ease between blink, meta, and swipe. Knocking Blink to the space bar just means bhopping would be out of whack. If it makes EVERYONE a good fade then all the better, as it means you can uniformly fix the fade for all players. As it stands top level fades are all but unkillable, low level fades are far too easy to kill. We're trying to even it out - so uniformly good fades are a nice way to start, since if everyone knows how to use them then a nerf is going to be easier to implement.
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Mar 31 2005, 06:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Mar 31 2005, 06:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Knocking Blink to the space bar <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> One note: Throughout this thread, some people have been suggesting a specific key for this or that. Doesn't work that way. People can bind A KEY not "this key". <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
People like different key layouts. (Which incidentally is why mp_bs is silly--it REQUIRES the mousewheel to be a certain thing for optimal play.)
What I'm saying is that blink replaces jump entirely
While quite freaky, it WILL force people to learn how to blink properly, and even if they only use it for the hit/run side of things then they'll STILL have an advantage because they only need to lastweapon switch between swipe and meta.
The groundwork is there in the Lerk, and IF the weapon slot was made to use Spikes (I use spikes for the sake of argument) then even a nub fade can be of some use as a pseudomarine.
I'd like to point out a few things (actually a lot of things). I think everyone should give these serious thought and some they should keep in mind as this discussion continues:
General- ) Nobody in this topic qualifies as a regular gamer. A regular gamer just gets on and plays the game, they don't go to the game's site to read through the forums.
) Regular gamers are the life and blood of a succesful game. (if you think this is just my opinion, ask anyone who works in the gaming industry. It's possible for a game to survive through a fanbase or the like, but for success you need to get regular people playing.)
) A regular gamer will not play something if it is not fun to begin with. (and at this point, it is not fun to play the fade when you first start)
) The only practice that a regular gamer will put into a game (generally) is the practice of just playing the game. A regular gamer does not usually dedicate time to becoming good at a specific skill.
) A regular gamer, does not even know how to script or change advanced configurations. An abnormal proportion of NS players (most of whom don't qualify as normal gamers anyways) know how to script and change things through use of the console, this does not mean that it should be assumed that anyone who plays NS should know these things.
The fade- ) Should the fade play such an important role in the game? It is not hard to argue that the skill of the fades is what makes or breaks a kharaa team, now stop and ask yourself if this is a good or bad thing?
) Changing the power of the fade is not a viable option at this point (without having to heavily change the whole game). If you make it weaker to decrease the effect of the high end players, you will completely kill the already small amount of new fade players. If you make it stronger to make it easier on new players, you will destroy the game balance becuase the higher players will become insanely effective.
) What about the fade makes it so important to the game?
) What alternatives are there to having the fade play such an important role? What would be the effect on the game as a whole from each of those alternitives?
) Should blink be so important an ability for the fade? Honesty stop and think about it. Whether you like they way it is or dislike the way it is, should have nothing to do with the answer.
) Why should blink stay or go? There have been a large number of posts saying that blink should be changed, and only a few saying it should stay the same. When giving alternatives, think about why you want it changed, and say so in your post.
) At this point, it seems unlikely the developers will want to change the entire game, just to fix the fade issue. So try to come up with solutions that don't require a massive change to the game.
The above are things to be thought about, and I don't see any point to debating the value of them. The below are my opinions, so feel free to debate them with me, I'm always open to discussion.
The best idea I've seen would be to have blinking integrated with jump. It would require no change to the games overall gameplay, would not affect the high end players, and would make it easier for the low end players.
This is how I'd set it up- (only while swipe or AR is selected, not metabilize so as to prevent infinite blink) just like with the lerk, pressing the jump button while on the ground just makes you jump. Pressing it in the air would cuase you to blink just as it is implemeted now. It's that simple.
For now (until someone can come up with a good alternative), keep blink in slot 2, so that for those used to the current setup won't have to change at all.
The benifits of this are several: 1) no change to overall gameplay 2) does not make the already deadly high end fade even deadlier 3) easy to implement 4) will make it easier for new players to pick up on fading.
<i>((And I know I come off as arragant, rude, and a number of other things, but I just went through 18 pages full of almost childish arguing, and nobody else seems to be willing to take a step back and point out logically and objectively what needs to be done if this topic is going to go anwhere. So please send the insults, flames or others to me through PM and keep this topic on the subject.))</i>
Problem I see with your reasoning right off the bat is that NS, especially the alien side, isn't a fun game to just pick up and play as-is anyway. It's too different from other games for skulking, lerking, fading, any of it to come as second-nature, and it's too easy to die (or end up having the entire server screaming at you). So in that sense, the fade is hardly the biggest problem; if you really want to make the game newbie-friendly, start with the skulk and work your way up, because that's the class that players have to play most of the time by design.
OR we could just leave the game as is, because 1) it's fun for those few players willing to invest time in understanding it, and 2) There's still at least a year or two AND most likely a port to Source in between the current iteration of NS and the point where UWE will make money off of the game.
Obviously games that require a lot of time to experience fully ARE popular amongst enough players to be successful; look at most any MMORPG game. I hardly think putting some time into a game automatically deters any casual gamer, or no one would ever get past level 2 in any game ever sold. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Well when I first played I was intrigued by the alien way of doing things..and despite the obvious annoyances and inability to "gel" with the way of doing things, I could still kill as a skulk, and still build stuff as a gorge, and still spore/spike and cause annoyance with lerk. I couldn't do it well but the fact I was getting enjoyment out of the skill level I was using them at (and we all know that if you're playing on a server above your skill level, you need to find one more tuned to you...)
Fade (and to a much lesser degree, onos) doesn't have this level of enjoyment when you're at a low skill...infact it has very little to no enjoyment. At least with the onos you work out its limits, it's a very simple (but brutal) creature....witht he fade it's all so much more complex that you never really begin to learn before you've wasted so much res, been lambasted by people on your server (I know this because even I have a go at crap fades on servers sometimes, even though I can't fade...because they are THAT vital), and generally got **** off with the whole idea.
1) NS is a fun game. I have friends who I've shown it to, and they still play it occasionally. They all generally say that it's fun, just that they aren't willing to put the time into it to become good, not while they have other games they can play. While to the newbie, it isn't a load of fun, it isn't an unenjoyable experience, which is why my friends will play it from time to time. So saying NS isn't fun, just doesn't seem true to me. It may not be as fun as other games (when first starting) but it is definitly fun. Also, if a game isn't fun, it doesn't make since to me to say "well, it isn't fun anyways, so let's just keep it that way".
2) While it takes work to become good, every class in NS is fairly easy to learn the basics of, except fade. A skulk, after a minute of playing most people determine a) a skulk should use suprise to get close to the marines b) a skulk should use it's superior speed and maneuverability to get close to the marines, excluding leaping, that is the essence of skulk play. A gorge, one death is general all it takes to emphasize that a gorge is a non-combat class, the essence of gorge gameplay. A lerk, this one is a little less obvious, but the fact that a lerk is just fun to play allows newbies to soon learn how to play it well. The onos, it takes awhile to learn when to run and when to fight but the basics of onos play are pretty simple, you're a slow but well armored destroyer. The fade on the other hand, you can't just pick it up from the start. It usually takes someone a few or more deaths before they learn the tactics needed for a fade to be <b>Useful</b>, not <b>Good</b>, <b>Useful</b>.
3) I never said people aren't willing to put time into a game. I said that most people aren't willing to take time away from the game in general, that they are having fun with, just to practice something that they only use part of the time. And in the case of the fade, it's even more unlikely, becuase the practice isn't just boring, or lacking in fun, it is actively unpleasant.
Comments
It just means nublets only have to worry about meta/swipe switching and not hitting walls. Lerk flight is generally a tapping affair with the occasional period of gliding, and it works very well indeed - people get used to it fairly easily.
It would be very easy to test anyway, you wouldn't even need to alter the engine at all, just set up a PT server and make people use that jump/blink bind thing. Couple of rounds later and you'd have enough feedback to decide if its worth further testing or not.
It requires a script that switches to blink, activates it, and switches back, though. It also means that lastinv will take you to blink, rather than metabolize, swipe, or whatever else you would like to switch to. This means that it still isn't as convenient to use as a built-in function, and new players probably aren't going to start off using scripts. So, it isn't the same thing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, you can make a script that remembers your lastinv <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't forget <a href='http://members.cox.net/flaming.june/form' target='_blank'>my contribution</a>
Simultaneous meta and blink should make it pretty easy to conserve energy.
I really like the blink now it's very easy to use and when you take celerity and cara which I always do it's easy to meta while blinking on a straight I hardly every run out of energy the point is to click once until you hit the floor then blink again.
Only problem is that you get nailed very easily when your blinking now otherwise it's cool <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The fade doesn't need energy conservation it needs to be how it was described in the manual it was called a Fade because it appears and dissapears. I say it should either cloak while blinking or be able to go through players , structures , railing doors etc NOT walls that would just be unfair.
Simultaneous meta and blink should make it pretty easy to conserve energy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Give me 2 hives and I'll play with my feet <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I don't think that the solution is to make fades stronger, but to make them weaker and cheaper. Regardless of how powerful you make the fade, newbies will still die very often while learning how to use it. Then they have to wait for 50 more res to fade again. The problem is that the fade is a big required risk. If you don't have any fades by midgame, you'll lose. There is no other lifeform that can substitute for the fade. If you make the aliens less dependant on fades, then the whole team doesn't have to rely on the fade to dominate, so newbies don't have a huge responsibility on their shoulders, so they won't get discouraged. I'm sure that this has been said before, but I won't read through 17 pages to find it.
Also, newbies can learn how to fade through combat. Everytime you die, you can refade quickly, so you can learn from your mistakes without having to wait several minutes for another 50 res.
They get over 3 upgrades and get spoiled. I myself no longer upgrade more then 3 things in combat on any lifeform to make sure I don't get spoiled and down my skill
They get over 3 upgrades and get spoiled. I myself no longer upgrade more then 3 things in combat on any lifeform to make sure I don't get spoiled and down my skill <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I get meta, cara, regen, cele, and focus, so I'm only one upgrade over the limit. Remember that combat fades have to face jetpackers and heavy weapons more often than classic fades. Also, the skills that you need to succeed in combat, like learning blinking, blink-swiping, mid air meta, hitting JPs, etc all apply in classic. It's really easy to make the transition.
Or you could consider it a game, not a practice session.
Or you can say to hell with it and just play it as the seperate entity it is <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Still...doesn't mean you can't use it as intense training if you let it
Or you could consider it a game, not a practice session. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because you can use Combat as practice, doesn't mean you have to all of the time. Practice if you want, play if you want, go crazy one round and try to be a cloak fade, whatever the hell you feel like. The point is that the option is open to use Combat as practice.
Having cara + regen just means that you'll be a little more reckless, which is easily corrected. It doesn't completely spoil your game.
Fades have undergone an interesting change from the start of NS. Blink was instantenous, some early versions presented problems for blinking fades getting stuck, and fades had 2 long range attacks. Acid rockets were stronger and were available around hive 2, so a lot of clan matches were focused primarily on one of two things: Deny the aliens a second hive, which could very easily fail due to the fact that the marines were forced to babysit 3 strategic locations (2 hives and their base), or the 5 minute jetpack rush (which almost always worked).
Needless to say, the dynamics of the fade has changed considerably over the course of time. Fades are less of a long-range fighter and, in my opinion, have become something more of a larger, more durable version of a skulk.
There are two issues I will address in this post: the current focus of "marine teamwork, alien skill" and the learning curve issue. (Edit: I lied. I can talk about balance another day <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
1) Like most good mods, NS has evolved to the point where there is a significant difference between average pub play and clan-level gameplay. I cannot claim to be an expert of the fade any longer, but from what I remember of the beta 2.0 testing, the third ability of the fade was not a gamebreaking ability of the fade. It's blink that's the problem.
With marine mobility having been hampered after bunnyhopping was removed, the best way a marine can save himself besides some limited degree of dodging is aiming well. This can become extremely hard against fades with celerity and the blink ability. The degree to which alien speed plays a factor in whether or not a marine has died has been upped since the creation of this mod. I have had the same computer since beta 1 of this mod, and my frusteration level with the fade is not so much their teleportation ability, but my lack of being able to get away. In a straight on group firefight, most aliens can't survive--but it is precisely their abilities that let them move fast enough to kill marines and/or escape that makes them so awesome and lets them throw off even the best of players. I have seen few mods where players can legit-ly (without bunnyhopping) move as fast as they can in NS, and most of those mods were focused more on capture-the flag style teamplay.
You no longer have to be awesome at acid rocket to kill mass marines--you just have to be able to switch from claws to blink well enough and use them well enough. The problem basically boils down to one of hand-eye coordination, and using one's senses. Ideally, everyone would have great coordination, but this is not the case, and is almost certainly hampered by machine configuration.
Which brings me to my last point: The best reason I can think of for bunny hopping being nerfed for marines is because marines were supposed to be easy to play out of the box. A skilled commander could mould recruits into a competent, organized force. Aliens have such a large discrepancy between being average and being "uberskulk" precisely because of people's ability to utilize speed to their advantage. And sometimes it isn't their fault (old machines, old age, etc). And consider this: IF NS ever makes the leap to source, I bet a lot of people will become bad at fade again precisely because of a framerate drop, but as time progresses and people upgrade their computers and new blood becomes interested in the mod (along with old timers like me just dissapearing), the "feel" of the mod will shift towards speed being taken advantage again.
Having cara + regen just means that you'll be a little more reckless, which is easily corrected. It doesn't completely spoil your game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Try this, go to some random CO server and get as many upgrades as you can, then play as a fade. The next day do the opposite, join a CO server and play as a fade with 1-2 upgrades. I would bet that most players that download a fresh copy of NS and join a CO server learn very little about how to use the lifeforms correctly.
Further, the biggest killers of fades are walls or greed. Combat is no different from classic on this front. Its not going to alleviate the problem any, at most it can only help slightly refine existing technique.
On the other topic of Blink on Space Bar, top level fades are usually top level BECAUSE they can switch with ease between blink, meta, and swipe. Knocking Blink to the space bar just means bhopping would be out of whack. If it makes EVERYONE a good fade then all the better, as it means you can uniformly fix the fade for all players. As it stands top level fades are all but unkillable, low level fades are far too easy to kill. We're trying to even it out - so uniformly good fades are a nice way to start, since if everyone knows how to use them then a nerf is going to be easier to implement.
One note: Throughout this thread, some people have been suggesting a specific key for this or that. Doesn't work that way. People can bind A KEY not "this key". <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
People like different key layouts. (Which incidentally is why mp_bs is silly--it REQUIRES the mousewheel to be a certain thing for optimal play.)
While quite freaky, it WILL force people to learn how to blink properly, and even if they only use it for the hit/run side of things then they'll STILL have an advantage because they only need to lastweapon switch between swipe and meta.
The groundwork is there in the Lerk, and IF the weapon slot was made to use Spikes (I use spikes for the sake of argument) then even a nub fade can be of some use as a pseudomarine.
General-
) Nobody in this topic qualifies as a regular gamer. A regular gamer just gets on and plays the game, they don't go to the game's site to read through the forums.
) Regular gamers are the life and blood of a succesful game. (if you think this is just my opinion, ask anyone who works in the gaming industry. It's possible for a game to survive through a fanbase or the like, but for success you need to get regular people playing.)
) A regular gamer will not play something if it is not fun to begin with. (and at this point, it is not fun to play the fade when you first start)
) The only practice that a regular gamer will put into a game (generally) is the practice of just playing the game. A regular gamer does not usually dedicate time to becoming good at a specific skill.
) A regular gamer, does not even know how to script or change advanced configurations. An abnormal proportion of NS players (most of whom don't qualify as normal gamers anyways) know how to script and change things through use of the console, this does not mean that it should be assumed that anyone who plays NS should know these things.
The fade-
) Should the fade play such an important role in the game? It is not hard to argue that the skill of the fades is what makes or breaks a kharaa team, now stop and ask yourself if this is a good or bad thing?
) Changing the power of the fade is not a viable option at this point (without having to heavily change the whole game). If you make it weaker to decrease the effect of the high end players, you will completely kill the already small amount of new fade players. If you make it stronger to make it easier on new players, you will destroy the game balance becuase the higher players will become insanely effective.
) What about the fade makes it so important to the game?
) What alternatives are there to having the fade play such an important role? What would be the effect on the game as a whole from each of those alternitives?
) Should blink be so important an ability for the fade? Honesty stop and think about it. Whether you like they way it is or dislike the way it is, should have nothing to do with the answer.
) Why should blink stay or go? There have been a large number of posts saying that blink should be changed, and only a few saying it should stay the same. When giving alternatives, think about why you want it changed, and say so in your post.
) At this point, it seems unlikely the developers will want to change the entire game, just to fix the fade issue. So try to come up with solutions that don't require a massive change to the game.
The above are things to be thought about, and I don't see any point to debating the value of them. The below are my opinions, so feel free to debate them with me, I'm always open to discussion.
The best idea I've seen would be to have blinking integrated with jump. It would require no change to the games overall gameplay, would not affect the high end players, and would make it easier for the low end players.
This is how I'd set it up- (only while swipe or AR is selected, not metabilize so as to prevent infinite blink) just like with the lerk, pressing the jump button while on the ground just makes you jump. Pressing it in the air would cuase you to blink just as it is implemeted now. It's that simple.
For now (until someone can come up with a good alternative), keep blink in slot 2, so that for those used to the current setup won't have to change at all.
The benifits of this are several:
1) no change to overall gameplay
2) does not make the already deadly high end fade even deadlier
3) easy to implement
4) will make it easier for new players to pick up on fading.
<i>((And I know I come off as arragant, rude, and a number of other things, but I just went through 18 pages full of almost childish arguing, and nobody else seems to be willing to take a step back and point out logically and objectively what needs to be done if this topic is going to go anwhere. So please send the insults, flames or others to me through PM and keep this topic on the subject.))</i>
OR we could just leave the game as is, because 1) it's fun for those few players willing to invest time in understanding it, and 2) There's still at least a year or two AND most likely a port to Source in between the current iteration of NS and the point where UWE will make money off of the game.
Obviously games that require a lot of time to experience fully ARE popular amongst enough players to be successful; look at most any MMORPG game. I hardly think putting some time into a game automatically deters any casual gamer, or no one would ever get past level 2 in any game ever sold. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Fade (and to a much lesser degree, onos) doesn't have this level of enjoyment when you're at a low skill...infact it has very little to no enjoyment. At least with the onos you work out its limits, it's a very simple (but brutal) creature....witht he fade it's all so much more complex that you never really begin to learn before you've wasted so much res, been lambasted by people on your server (I know this because even I have a go at crap fades on servers sometimes, even though I can't fade...because they are THAT vital), and generally got **** off with the whole idea.
1) NS is a fun game. I have friends who I've shown it to, and they still play it occasionally. They all generally say that it's fun, just that they aren't willing to put the time into it to become good, not while they have other games they can play. While to the newbie, it isn't a load of fun, it isn't an unenjoyable experience, which is why my friends will play it from time to time. So saying NS isn't fun, just doesn't seem true to me. It may not be as fun as other games (when first starting) but it is definitly fun. Also, if a game isn't fun, it doesn't make since to me to say "well, it isn't fun anyways, so let's just keep it that way".
2) While it takes work to become good, every class in NS is fairly easy to learn the basics of, except fade. A skulk, after a minute of playing most people determine a) a skulk should use suprise to get close to the marines b) a skulk should use it's superior speed and maneuverability to get close to the marines, excluding leaping, that is the essence of skulk play. A gorge, one death is general all it takes to emphasize that a gorge is a non-combat class, the essence of gorge gameplay. A lerk, this one is a little less obvious, but the fact that a lerk is just fun to play allows newbies to soon learn how to play it well. The onos, it takes awhile to learn when to run and when to fight but the basics of onos play are pretty simple, you're a slow but well armored destroyer. The fade on the other hand, you can't just pick it up from the start. It usually takes someone a few or more deaths before they learn the tactics needed for a fade to be <b>Useful</b>, not <b>Good</b>, <b>Useful</b>.
3) I never said people aren't willing to put time into a game. I said that most people aren't willing to take time away from the game in general, that they are having fun with, just to practice something that they only use part of the time. And in the case of the fade, it's even more unlikely, becuase the practice isn't just boring, or lacking in fun, it is actively unpleasant.