Mid-game Balance

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Comments

  • Garet_JaxGaret_Jax Join Date: 2003-02-23 Member: 13870Members, Constellation
    I can fade (although not in clan matches, ScorpNL, Phoenix and even dema (olol) can fade better than I) and don't use scripts- but I really wish that ms_bs was never implemented.

    I'd be willing to have a few more deaths if it meant script-fans could still play NS.

    mp_bs was the worst thing to happen to NS, IMHO.

    I don't see how it improves a fade (or any other class. lastinv + hud_fastswitch 1 > all) but it's put a lot of people off NS. gg voogru.
  • Garet_JaxGaret_Jax Join Date: 2003-02-23 Member: 13870Members, Constellation
    I can fade (although not in clan matches, ScorpNL, Phoenix and even dema (olol) can fade better than I) and don't use scripts- but I really wish that ms_bs was never implemented.

    I'd be willing to have a few more deaths if it meant script-fans could still play NS.

    mp_bs was the worst thing to happen to NS, IMHO.

    I don't see how it improves a fade (or any other class. lastinv + hud_fastswitch 1 > all) but it's put a lot of people off NS. gg voogru.
  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
    Just play on the bs_0 servers if it really affects you that much. I personally pwn more on the bs_1 servers becuase on average, people there aren't as good.
  • SwiftspearSwiftspear Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Church+Mar 22 2005, 10:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Mar 22 2005, 10:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just play on the bs_0 servers if it really affects you that much. I personally pwn more on the bs_1 servers becuase on average, people there aren't as good. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Agreed. BS_1 servers attract less skilled players because many clanners simply won't touch them. It really isn't that much harder to learn to get good without using any scripts, so the good clean config players really pwn it up on your average BS_1 server.
  • comradecomrade Join Date: 2003-11-30 Member: 23774Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Church+Mar 22 2005, 10:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Mar 22 2005, 10:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just play on the bs_0 servers if it really affects you that much. I personally pwn more on the bs_1 servers becuase on average, people there aren't as good. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This is Europe



    blink/swipe or leap/bite scripts are retarded

    +3jump is fine

    pistol scripts make pistoling about 1.5 times easier
  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
    Pistol scripts don't help me at all. 3jump is fine of course. I don't personally know anyone who ever uses a script to blink/swipe for him. I don't believe that there is actually out there who would use such a thing.
  • comradecomrade Join Date: 2003-11-30 Member: 23774Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Church+Mar 22 2005, 10:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Mar 22 2005, 10:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Pistol scripts don't help me at all. 3jump is fine of course. I don't personally know anyone who ever uses a script to blink/swipe for him. I don't believe that there is actually out there who would use such a thing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    well with pistol scripts it isn't so much the speed of the firing, I can do that anyway, but the accuracy increased when dodging and the fact that you dont have to hit the button twice as fast that lets you concentrate more on killing things.
  • MrBenMrBen ns_eclipse, ns_veil caretaker Join Date: 2002-11-14 Member: 8575Members
    Oh and for the record, blink management scripts suck and it can easily be done by hand. See here: <a href='http://mrben.thezazi.net/demos/blink.zip' target='_blank'>http://mrben.thezazi.net/demos/blink.zip</a>

    Well, maybe not easily, i probably hit lastinv the better part of 50 times during that sequence.
  • EmanonEmanon Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16254Members, Constellation
    Off the subject of scripts...

    I understand the problem of the fade in regards to clan/public play but I am very reluctant to say that it must change. Instead I would rather see an increase in the amount of weapons given out midgame so that the fades couldnt run around without worry and dominate.

    IMO this would help balance out both public and clan play. In clan play good fades would be facing good marines who can really shoot.. While in public the average fades will be facing the average marines therefore making the skill curve uniform for both sections of play. This would also decrease the skulks effectiveness midgame as well, as free upgrades have given them a large boost.

    How this would be done is up to you but this is my own take on the situation.
  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
    And the way to do this is to increase marine satrting res. If we give marines 20-40 more res at the beginning, that's like 2,3 extra guns right there, or welders enough for the whole team.
  • tjosantjosan Join Date: 2003-05-16 Member: 16374Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-comrade+Mar 22 2005, 10:21 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (comrade @ Mar 22 2005, 10:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Church+Mar 22 2005, 10:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Mar 22 2005, 10:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Pistol scripts don't help me at all.  3jump is fine of course.  I don't personally know anyone who ever uses a script to blink/swipe for him.  I don't believe that there is actually out there who would use such a thing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    well with pistol scripts it isn't so much the speed of the firing, I can do that anyway, but the accuracy increased when dodging and the fact that you dont have to hit the button twice as fast that lets you concentrate more on killing things. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Agreed.
  • EntropiuaEntropiua Join Date: 2003-04-21 Member: 15736Members
    I'd rather see an increase in the energy use of blink (or swipe), so it would actually be possible to run a fade out of energy and chase him down. If a counterbalance is needed, slightly increase fade hp.

    My main objection to current fade balance is that (barring simply overwhelming firepower, like 6 heavy weapons in the same place) a fade only dies due to a mistake. Granted, it's very difficult to play a fade perfectly, but a perfectly played fade is practically impossible to kill.
  • DirmDirm Join Date: 2004-08-30 Member: 31025Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-Minstrel Knight+Mar 21 2005, 11:42 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Minstrel Knight @ Mar 21 2005, 11:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-monopolowa+Mar 21 2005, 11:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (monopolowa @ Mar 21 2005, 11:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And as for fades, (been mentioned before) I would suggest placing a minimum adren level for blink to work (15-20%, subject to tweaking)  This wouldn't hurt very good players too much (I know someone will disagree with this), as there's still plenty to blink in, swipe, blink out, but it would help less skilled players stay alive by forcing them to retreat sooner, instead of waiting till the last second then dying on the way out. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Good players use energy conservation scripts or mouse wheel to blink anyway making adrenaline a non issue. This idea would only hurt those who already need help.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Is this true? I'd never heard of anyone doing such a thing.


    Anyway, here are a few issues I see as far as the curve goes:

    1) difficulty of practicing
    One can practice fade in combat or classic. Fading when you are bad is frowned upon in classic, as you use 50 res and then die. Nobody cares if you fade in combat. Combat is okay for practicing blinking, swiping, and bunnyhopping. It has a few important differences, though:
    Fades get many upgrades in combat
    Fades don't care so much if they die in combat, as they can just go fade again, so They don't have to practice the most important part of fading: being smart and knowing when to run
    There tends to be less teamwork in combat, as there is no commander
    A fade needs practice in classic. The problem with this is that, if he is not that great, people won't want him to fade. He'll also only get about 3 minutes of practice for each time he saves up 50 res. In addition, if he is fading, that is one fewer person to deal with nodes, chambers, and hive, so it is even more likely that the standard pub-strat of 9-minute hive and 13-minute chambers is implemented.

    2) as mentioned, energy management
    Experienced fades will blink by simply tapping the attack button (or, apparently, using scripts), using the minimum amount of energy. If you spectate a less-experienced fade, he will tend to use more energy per blink, without really getting anything for it, simply because he is not used to only tapping attack. I have not tried an energy conservation script. Can you tell a difference at all? (aside from having more energy) Is there any reason that such should not be the default behavior in NS?
    The other energy management issue is bunny hopping. If you can't bunny hop, then whenever you're not blinking, you're walking. Walking makes you vulnerable and causes you to take longer to get places. First, with hopping, you don't have to blink as much, as you can hop short distances, so you have more energy. Second, if a fade does run out of energy, he only needs one blink to escape at a decent speed. When he doesn't have enough energy to blink, he can hop. If a fade that cannot hop runs out of energy, he's stuck walking between saving energy for blink. This is death.
    In addition, good fades are able to metabolize between constant blinks. This is very difficult with the default config, and even somewhat awkward with hud_fastswitch 1 and the weapons bound to 1,2,3.

    3) map peculiarities
    People keep saying to get good at fading in combat. This does help with the skills in general (blinking, swiping, hopping). It does not help one get used to the ns_ maps, though. An inexperienced fade will die to weird stuff in the map. Here are some examples of places in maps that cause unexpected problems for fades who are not familiar with them:
    When one wants to move down a hallway, one tends to use blink. When you blink, you tend to look up a bit, to get more distance and avoid the friction on the floor. Thus, the easiest way to move through an area with a short ceiling is to simply blink against the ceiling. Some hallways have little ridges in the ceiling, though, which stop your blink dead. Blinking through these hallways becomes a matter of sticking in the short area between ceiling and floor. Sometimes halls have these visual things on the roof, but either they are intangible or they are smoothed out by a clip brush (I think that's the term?). One cannot tell simply by looking at a roof whether it is safe to blink along. One must try to actually blink along it. Even after playing an ns_ map for months, there are still likely quirks you have not found. Note that learning about these quirks pretty much requires actually playing as fade. Blinking depends on properties of the map that pretty much nothing else uses (except maybe jetpacks). The only way to learn the map as pertains to a fade is to play fade on the map. This is an expensive proposition, as the less motivated of us (viz. those who would not dirty themselves with a clan tag) are not likely to try blinking around on a listen server, and would have to learn by going fade on public servers, when they don't already know the map.
    Ramps have strange behavior. If you walk up a ramp, when you come to the corner, you just keep going. If you blink up a ramp, touching the ground at the end, you fly straight up. This description might not suffice if you have not experienced it: what I mean is, you can have a lot of forward momentum as you approach the top of the ramp, and when you hit the edge, you lose all forward momentum, and go straight up. This is rather unintuitive behavior.
    The red hallway on tanith <i>still</i> renders it impossible to blink or leap. I don't mean that it is so difficult due to obstructions that it is extremely difficult to do anything effective. I mean that blink and leap will not even fire in the area. This has been known (at least by experienced fades) for some time, and still takes fades down rather often.
    There are a couple of weird invisible walls: the east side of south exit from the vent from biodome to xenoform. If a fade tries to duck-blink in to or out of ventilation on hera through either of the upper entrances, he will get stuck on nothing, in midair, be unable to move, and forced to suicide, have a gorge build him an mc, or wait for a marine to kill him. I seem to recall an invisible wall in marine start on hera, as well, but haven't run into it lately.

    Good fading on a map requires playtime fading on that particular map. I'm sure everyone had some stupid fade deaths for their first few orbital scrims (e.g. atrium->jturn vent). Inexperienced fades, as mentioned, get less time practicing as fade, and they only get to play a map for a bit before the server changes to the next map.

    4) The inconsistency of pubs
    Many pub players are bad. Some pub players are good.
    A mediocre fade can get a reasonable number of kills by repeating this: blink in at a player, land next to him, proceed to walk at him and swipe him three times.
    This works against many pub players. A player can come to get used to this, and expect this type of play. One good player with something bigger than an lmg will throw a wrench in this. Competitive players are used to treating every marine as a threat, and act appropriately paranoid.

    5) Awareness
    One of the common causes of deaths for good fades comes from not knowing what he is going up against. Either the group of marines he attacks will have bigger guns than expected, or there will be a marine hiding in there with a shotgun, or a marine will be waiting at his escape route to the hive. A great way of killing fades is to bait him in with a walker-three-swipe, and then have two shotgunners jump out and nail him. A not-so-good fade will think "he's just an lmg with light armor, I can hit him with two more swipes and then run away". This might even be a reasonable decision if the fade has good reason to suspect that they're bad shots. A good fade will get the hell out, or at least stop trying to swipe, blink to the ceiling, and figure out what he's going to do. Mediocre fades get used to having a marine fire 8 shotgun shells at him and live, so they don't worry about running. When a marine gets lucky and actually hits, the fade dies. Good fades don't leave it to chance (mostly because it's not an option against good marines). I guess this should sort of fall under inconsistency of pub players..

    6) blink-swipe
    As mentioned, good fades will not stick around when there are big guns. Even two swipes can be pushing it when there are shotguns or HMGs in the mix. A fade must thus blink in, swipe the marine while blinking, and blink out immediately. He might be able to survive long enough to swipe a second time, but it is risky in many situations. Mediocre fades tend to use blink as a transportation device, and stick to swipe in combat. They thus blink in at a marine, land somewhere near him, walk at him, and keep swiping and walking at him until he dies. This leaves the fade very vulnerable throughout, even against a lone shotgunner. If he is a good marine, the first swipe will knock him back, and the fade will take much time to close the distance, since he is merely walking. A good fade will either hit swipes consecutively, or blink in, swipe, blink away, blink back in, swipe again, and so on.

    7) going for kills
    A fade might feel useless if he is not racking up kills. Thus, when he is trying to hit a large group of marines, he will see no point in attacking them if he is not going to get a kill out of it. While killing marines is not a bad thing, thinking that you have to get a kill when you blink in is. Fades are much more useful alive than dead, and no one really cares if a marine or two dies. A fade is able to do something that marines cannot, even if he gets no kills: pressure a group of marines. Skulks have a hard time even approaching marines. The existence of a fade will make the marines nervous, make them waste their ammo, cause them to spend time reloading and/or welding, and draw their fire. A fade could do nothing but blink through, causing the marines to turn and fire while skulks come in and get the marines from behind, and be extremely useful. A good fade will often not be able to get a kill in a group of three marines with shotguns (if they are good shotguns with welders), but he can easily distract them so that a skulk or two can nail them.

    8) health/armor
    The whole health/armor system is pretty unintuitive. A fade has 300 health and 150 armor. At one hive, each point of armor is equivalent to two points of health, so a fade has effectively 600 health. The fade's armor accounts for half of his effective health. A good fade will pay closer attention to his armor than his health when determining whether he should run. Players are used to looking mostly at their health, rather than their armor.



    That's all I've got off the top of my head. Keep in mind that my clan didn't even get into the playoffs, and I die as fade a lot, so much of this is probably inaccurate (as I'm sure people will be eager to point out), but this has been my experience in the difference between pub fading and clan fading (I made the transition 4-5 months ago).

    I think the biggest thing is just that mediocre fades are far too bold. It's not uncommon to see a good fade run after taking half an lmg clip from a lone marine. There is no reason to risk it just to get a kill, so he gets out. Mediocre fades will often walk at you when you have a shotgun, get hit 4 times, kill you, and then move awkwardly back to the hive. While this does get kills, it gets you in trouble as soon as someone has good aim or there are multiple marines.
  • AndervalAnderval &lt;3 Join Date: 2003-05-05 Member: 16073Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-Entropiua+Mar 22 2005, 06:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Entropiua @ Mar 22 2005, 06:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'd rather see an increase in the energy use of blink (or swipe), so it would actually be possible to run a fade out of energy and chase him down. If a counterbalance is needed, slightly increase fade hp.

    My main objection to current fade balance is that (barring simply overwhelming firepower, like 6 heavy weapons in the same place) a fade only dies due to a mistake. Granted, it's very difficult to play a fade perfectly, but a perfectly played fade is practically impossible to kill. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    isn't this topic meant to be about discussing how to make the fade easier for less skilled players to use? not harder
  • SkySky Join Date: 2004-04-23 Member: 28131Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Entropiua+Mar 22 2005, 12:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Entropiua @ Mar 22 2005, 12:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'd rather see an increase in the energy use of blink (or swipe), so it would actually be possible to run a fade out of energy and chase him down. If a counterbalance is needed, slightly increase fade hp.

    My main objection to current fade balance is that (barring simply overwhelming firepower, like 6 heavy weapons in the same place) a fade only dies due to a mistake. Granted, it's very difficult to play a fade perfectly, but a perfectly played fade is practically impossible to kill. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Well, he <i>is</i> a 50 res lifeform, being played perfectly. Shouldn't he be at least as strong, if not stronger, than a few shotties/hmgs?
  • Router_BoxRouter_Box Join Date: 2004-09-07 Member: 31483Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    Guys, eveyone should read Dirm's entire post. It points out exactly every common situation that either kills fades or makes them awesome.

    The b5 status quo in a game, was for fades to be met with armor 1, weapons 2 and two shotguns/welders. (this may be different more often now as people are trying different strats to handle sc's.)

    4 weapons2 shotty blasts will kill a fade even if they all don't connect perfectly. So when the fade finds those two shotgunners, if he blinks in to get them, and they shoot him once on the way in and once on the way out, he dies.

    I wont go in at two shotgunners without help. I will stick with them and delay thier movements untill i get skulk or lerk support. <b>2 shotguns/welders is all you need to match a lone fade (30 res.) This may not kill him because a good fade will not fight 2 shotgunners alone.</b>

    To down fades, look at their weaknesses/strengths. A fade NEEDS to blink in hit once and blink out. If you take that away from him, you have a dead fade. When a fade goes in, he already has planned which exit he is going to use. This is often predictable, because it will be the same one he came in through. If you hide around the corner, and the fade goes in to kill your friend, hop out and stand in the doorway. Often he wont notice you are there untill he is blocked by you. After he bumps into you, jump. This is because his next instinct will be to blink over your head. Most of the time the fade wont even hit you, he'll be too busy panicking. <b>Thats how you kill even the most pro fades. </b>

    How many times have you heard a fade yell at a teammate for blocking him? As a marine you can block him too, it just takes some brains.
  • NecrosisNecrosis The Loquacious Sage Join Date: 2003-08-03 Member: 18828Members, Constellation
    The man speaks truth, blocking is the way for stopping higher evos. Certainly moreso at the pub level because the fade is severely out of energy (if he's one of those mashers who's swiping like crazy and hoping something connects), and just in general if he's not expecting a block.

    As for frame rate issues, I do agree it appears to make some difference. Currently I'm downgraded to a slightly knackered old Geforce, and there's a hell of a difference between this and my previous ATI firegl. Slipping up on my blink means hitting one of the maaaany cliptastic bits of scenery. In really bad situations this happens when I'm going celerity lerk at full speed.


    Speaking purely from pub experience, you have the walker fade, you've the masher fade, you've the overly cautious fade, and you finally have the skilled pubber fade.

    Masher fades don't understand the concept of energy, and thus tend to die on the way out of a room (no energy and/or not even hit one marine).

    Overly cautious fades aren't too bad, at the very least they can get in AND out of the room, which is enough to slow marine movement (and psych warfare is half the value of the fade as is).

    The other thing is that there are so few fades. Dirm's covered pretty much all the reasons, so I don't feel I have to recover that ground. The core of it is that some people have the concept of a fade as a front line smack match alien. They use blink for moving around the map, then try to take out three marines in one go.


    On the script front... I just use my weapon keys and lastinv. I'm not a fantastic fade but I've yet to actually run out of energy or find myself blinking when I should be swiping. My biggest killers are railings and bits of pipe.

    As a side note, personally I also hold this as one of the two reasons JPs are not often seen in pub play. No comm wants their team ramboing around on wings, and second most new players with a JP are going to end up clipping on things more than concerted flying.




    Ok, so how to fix. I don't think energy is the problem, because at least if masher fades have energy, they can live long enough to mash some more. As you get more used to the fade, you use proportionately less energy anyhow, so energy nerfs would only cripple the newbie.

    So, I suggest.................................. decreased health or armour. Its a bit radical, but my reasoning is as follows.

    First, lower health means the alien player is FORCED to hit and run. If he has any wit, he will quickly realise that blink is the key to moving around very fast and getting hits on marines.

    Second, he has plenty of unnerfed energy with which to practice. This means combat becomes a better training ground, as he can keep re-evolving to fade and learning to use less energy and to spend less time in front of marines. He can pick cara to give a small boost if need be (or regen, if it was changed to be more proportionate to initial hp) to make up for this. Regen is pretty much negated by meta, and imho redemption is a bit of waste on anything smaller than an Onos (ok, yes it does have its merits sometimes, but thats another discussion).

    I'm on dodgy ground here, but logically a health nerf shouldn't really be too disruptive at higher levels - at higher levels fades aren't generally spending time in one place long enough to get shot. Mid range players who die to clipping aren't going to be shortchanged, they just need to be more careful with aiming blink. Cautious fades aren't harmed, which is good because caution should be the first instinct.

    Low grade walker fades.......... should die even quicker. That might encourage them to try blinking, but at any rate no change that helps a walker fade is going to be balanced for better players.



    So there we have it. Health nerf to reinforce the hit and run image of a fade, as opposed to the misconception of a HEAVY assault unit. Onos remains the big basestormer, fade becomes more of an ambusher (give or take), players are encouraged to be more evasive, and as skill increases it shouldn't be much of a change to existing higher tier play (evidence being top tier people barely touch the ground as fade).

    Feel free to cut me apart, as is the usual practice, but I think its a good suggestion with sound theory and corroborating evidence.
  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
    Eh, at the higher levels of play, marines don't miss, and Fades kind of NEED those health to survive. I know I do easily enough even with the current health levels unless I take carapace.
  • AhnteisAhnteis teh Bob Join Date: 2002-10-02 Member: 1405Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-Anderval+Mar 22 2005, 06:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Anderval @ Mar 22 2005, 06:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> isn't this topic meant to be about discussing how to make the fade easier for less skilled players to use? not harder <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I thought it was also about making the fade less THE critical part of the alien NS_ game.

    It would be fine to have the super-steep learning curve for the fade if the aliens didn't rely so completely on them.
  • AndervalAnderval &lt;3 Join Date: 2003-05-05 Member: 16073Members, Constellation
    it isn't, skulks and lerks are and always have been vital componants to an alien team in the version even moreso. Think about it, if you dont have skulks to act as meat shields drawing fire (or to get kills after you've drawn fire) or lerks to weaken marines or at least force them to contantly weld and to distract them then how far are you going to get as a 1 hive fade? not very far, they have sgs or hmgs? no where at all.
  • SandstormSandstorm Join Date: 2003-09-25 Member: 21205Members
    A teleport blink is more or less what you want. Here's an idea I had when reading this thread:

    Change the Fade's Blink to a teleport skill that only targets objects on Hive Sight. In this case, a Fade depends on Parasite to target Marines or Marine structures. He can also target any friendly players or structures that are nearby, if he can't target the Marines directly. He can target Marines on Scent of Fear as well, if available.

    Such Fades would be harder to kill, as they retreat instantly, but they would do less damage, as they would have to walk/bunnyhop to attack Marines in their line-of-sight. Hence, they would depend on their teammates to mark targets, unless they happen to have Scent of Fear.

    Since a teleport Blink allows a Fade to return to the Hive as necessary, there isn't an urgent need for Defense upgrades. I'm guessing Celerity or Scent of Fear would be the more popular choices.
  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
    Such a fade would be impossible to kill. Bad idea.
  • GrendelGrendel All that is fear... Join Date: 2002-07-19 Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
    OK, sorry about the delay in responding. Instead of getting laid, I developed a viral migraine that had me hurling my guts out. But, here goes...

    Re: NGE
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This isn't true Grendel because lets say you are 40% accurate.

    You fire 30 bullets, and kill one skulk. By the time 30 bullets go off, if there were two skulks chances are you'd be dead before 30 bullets fired.

    Now say you are 60% accurate. That's only 20 bullets to kill a skulk, and the second skulk who is biting you is now by himself, and with some medspam you can kill him to, at a 60% accuracy rate.


    Only a 20% increase, and already you've doubled your kill rate. That's an exponential increase in killing power for marines.

    ALL aliens lack this basic exponential skill increase the basic marine has, except for the fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    First off, you introduce medspam into the equation. With medspam, you could just throw your weapons away and knife the skulks. Secondly, a progression from 40% to 60% requires a 50% increase in player skill. Thirdly, what you describe isn't an exponential improvement, at least from a mathematical perspective.

    Finally, the most difficult aspect of playing a melee class is closing to make contact. The main reason why skilled players brutalise skulks in public games is because they cannot close the distance. Once any kharaa player develops the ability to close to contact, their ability to kill marines improves radically. It's relatively easy to kill a group of two or three marines if you can get that close.


    Re: Abix
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Where are you getting your data from? Some random pub server at 2am? The NSA Vet server at midday? The number of players as well as the skill of players greaty affects such numbers. In a scrim between two clans, the more skilled side will get the earlygame kills, and then if the more skilled side is halfway decent, Fades wouldnt really matter except to help in the cleanup. The only time that Fades really come to mean anything is when the teams are matched up evenlyish. At that point, it again goes back to whos more skilled, but since neither made decent headway in the earlygame, its truly a tossup as to who will win. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Unfortunately I'm going to need to state the obvious here: reading my post would be a good start if you wish to take part in the discussion. I'm not talking about clan play or high level fades. In fact I explicitly stated that I didn't feel there was any need to change the impact of high level fades.


    Re: Saltzbad
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you need to know what keeps the "skill gap" (quoted for blatant misnomer) alive and well, you need only play NS on a fresh install and try to fade. So many variables configured in the worst possible way for fading - hud_fastswitch 0, default weapon keys, space +jump and it doesn't even launch with -noforcemparms by default.

    Theres really no need to make the entire affair any easier, short of fixing the smackingly obvious bits of user unfriendlyness. Especially considering it would take 2 goddamn minutes to write an optimized default config.cfg. I don't see how in the world the Fade is supposedly responsible for NS' horrible, horrible, horrible control schemes. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    It's quite possible you are 100% correct. However, I'm inclined to believe that this would only improve the very bottom of the graph. Perhaps there are many decent players who still play with hud_fastswitch 0 on, but I'd be suprised.


    Re: Router Box
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I disagree with the entire point of this thread. The thesis is that people should be closer to the best players, without having to put in as much effort as the best players.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That's not really the point I'm making. If you look at the proposed change in the dynamic, there's still a massive jump between an average to good fade and a CAL level fade.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you touch the fade you will hurt the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Whilst I don't agree that this is a foregone conclusion, I do agree that it's a significant concern.


    Re: DuoGodOfDeath
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In 3.0 Final I find skulks more worry some than fades v.v

    But thats just me. Sometimes they absorb bullets and use them for HP or something I dunno.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Whilst this might be true, it's not really relevant to the discussion at hand, i.e. would the game benefit from making fades slightly more accessible to intermediate players?


    Re: Router Box
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'll tell you right now why clan fades are so much better than pub fades.

    Pub fades play most of their fading hours on combat. Clan fades play most of their fading hours in ns. Playing a lvl 10 fade against bad marine shots most of the time will will hurt your game and playing a regen vanilla fade against excellant shots all the time will help it. When i play combat, i don't break the classic upgrade bounds, and then i only upgrade the things i need to keep the aliens from losing. focus for jps ect.

    "It's more that people's impact on the game should be closer to the best players relative to the effort they put in."

    So the players that have put more time and effort into the game, and consequently are better, deserve thier skill level and the subsequent victories. If thats what you're saying then I agree with you. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    To get this sort of practice, you need to be arbitrarily setting limits on yourself, which rather undermines the idea that combat is useful for newbies to practice on. This is pretty much the core of what I am trying to highlight, that the progression from useless to competent fade is extremely difficult to do without a dedicated training regime. For a game to prosper, I suggest it makes more sense for it to be possible within the bounds of normal gameplay.


    Re: Blue Mary
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think the problem is that Fades are overused not only because they work, but because the Onos isn't a killing machine like the Fade. If the Onos was worth it's res, then more people would Onos instead of Fade, making there be less Fades in general after the mid-game, where there SHOULD be Fades. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Apart from being off topic, kharaa with two hives really cease to be totally dependant on fades. At two hives the kharaa have generally won. Besides which, the late game Onos comes with stomp and the benefit of umbra.


    Re: Savant
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just for the sake of discussion, what if we made the fade a 'range' fighter? Put acid rocket in slot 1, swipe in slot 3 and metab in slot 4. That would give pubbers an 'easy' option, but still give clanners the strength of swipe in slot 3. While metab would be missed at hive 2, fades can move pretty quick back to a hive. Considering that they would now be primarily a range fighter, they wouldn't need that out-of-hive healing as much. Once hive 2 drops and blink is available, there is a 2 out of 3 chance that D chambers have been dropped and regen is available. (not to mention that they would be that much closer to any given hive for healing)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    No. Apart from the fact that this isn't a thread in I&S, to do such a thing would instantly change the entire core of NS gameplay, incense (rightly) the entire clan community and make blink pointless. Again sir, I say no.


    Re: Dr Aaargh
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->IMHO fades are in general balanced, only nub marines that go around in tiny groups have a problem with them.
    Dont go nerfing NS just because you cant fade - thats what combat is for - PRACTICE. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Don't go posting in threads that you haven't been reading. That's what words are for - READING.


    Re: Nadagast
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I really disagree... I think Fading really isn't that hard at all, you just have to be a tiny bit smart. That's pretty much it...

    75% not being retarded
    25% blink swipe skills<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Says the guy from Exigent. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> First off, blink/swipe takes a lot of practice to get even remotely reliable. Secondly, if by "not being retarded" you mean advanced situational awareness, an excellent knowledge of both map layout and geometry and a very good grasp of the interplay between damage/hp/armour, then I'd agree. Of course, this very attitude, that poor or learner fades are deserving of scorn, simply helps to prevent people from improving their game.

    I think that in no small way this contributes to the current trend for CAL clans to create "B" teams. Presumably when you are training and helping people to develop their fade skills, you don't immediately admin_say - "NSPLAYER was killed by WEAPONRETARDEDNESS".

    In reality, most mortals, myself included, suffer from this retardation you speak of. I'm quite prepared to practice to get better. I'm even quite willing to do arbitrary things to improve my game. However, at the end of it all, this is a game.

    Most people just play it in the naive belief that as they play it more, they might get better. Some even think that if they spend 50 resources, they'll get an avatar with some degree of survivability. This is probably one of the root causes of the issue.


    Re: Dirm
    <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=90590&view=findpost&p=1422102' target='_blank'>Too large to quote, too accurate to be denied</a>

    I can't find fault with anything he says. My ideas for adjusting the fade would revolve around all the issues he mentions here. Also, anyone who wishes to improve their fade game, read it repeatedly. However, I feel it only reinforces that it is difficult to improve one's fade game without an inherent understanding of the psychology of the fade. This kind of understanding only comes from;

    An excellent grasp of conflict psychology

    An epiphany

    Being taught

    It doesn't easily come as a result of practice, unless you put in a <b>lot</b> of practice. Until then, you'll get hosed a lot. This kind of non-intuitive gameplay harms a game's wider appeal and this is my concern.


    Re: Savant
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, I suggest.................................. decreased health or armour. Its a bit radical, but my reasoning is as follows<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Currently, two shotgun blasts and a smattering of pistol/lmg fire at W1 will down a Fade. It's a testament to the skill of CAL level fades that they manage to survive in this environment. As it is, Fades frequently leave skirmishes with 20-80hp many times every match. With such a negligible margin of error, you can't possibly be considering reducing their hp/armour further. I don't think it would help public players that much either, they'd just quit quicker.


    Re: Sandstorm
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A teleport blink is more or less what you want.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Apart from the fact that this isn't meant to be an I&S thread, what you suggest is a total reworking of the role of the fade. For reasons stated above, I'd have to say no. Besides, this idea would result in the fade spending half it's time running back to the fight, which would significantly reduce its value.


    Summary:

    Thanks for the input so far. Dirm's input alone forms the basis for a very useful sticky. Many other interesting and valid points have been made, although it would be nice if we could avoid wandering into the mp_bs and scripting dead ends. As tankefugl points out, Devs read these threads when they are full of worthwhile material.

    <b>At this point in the thread, there seems to be a consensus forming that the problem with intermediate fade usage stems from the psychological aspects of play, rather than any physical limitations of it. However, perhaps I have misinterpreted this.</b>

    Thoughts?
  • NGENGE Join Date: 2003-11-10 Member: 22443Members
    edited March 2005
    Wanna boost the fade? Lets rework the default.cfg, here's a killer setup for the fade:

    hud_fastswitch 1
    mwheelup +attack
    mwheeldown +jump

    //replace q with your bind for lastinv
    bind 1 "kk1a"
    bind 2 "kk2a"
    bind 3 "kk3a"
    bind 4 "kk4a"

    alias "kk1a" "kkslot1; bind c +metab; bind b +para"
    alias "kk1b" "kkslot1; bind q kk2a; bind c +metab; bind b +para"
    alias "kk1c" "kkslot1; bind q kk3a; bind c +metab; bind b +para"
    alias "kk1d" "kkslot1; bind q kk4a; bind c +metab; bind b +para"
    alias "kkslot1" "slot1; bind 1 kk1a; bind 2 kk2a; bind 3 kk3a; bind 4 kk4a"

    alias "kk2a" "kkslot2; bind q kk1b; bind c +metab2; bind b +para2"
    alias "kk2b" "kkslot2; bind c +metab2; bind b +para2"
    alias "kk2c" "kkslot2; bind q kk3b; bind c +metab2; bind b +para2"
    alias "kk2d" "kkslot2; bind q kk4b; bind c +metab2; bind b +para2"
    alias "kkslot2" "slot2; bind 1 kk1b; bind 2 kk2b; bind 3 kk3b; bind 4 kk4b"

    alias "kk3a" "kkslot3; bind q kk1c; bind c +metab3; bind b +para3"
    alias "kk3b" "kkslot3; bind q kk2c; bind c +metab3; bind b +para3"
    alias "kk3c" "kkslot3; bind c +metab3; bind b +para3"
    alias "kk3d" "kkslot3; bind q kk4c; bind c +metab3; bind b +para3"
    alias "kkslot3" "slot3; bind 1 kk1c; bind 2 kk2c; bind 3 kk3c; bind 4 kk4c"

    alias "kk4a" "kkslot4; bind q kk1d; bind c +metab4; bind b +para4"
    alias "kk4b" "kkslot4; bind q kk2d; bind c +metab4; bind b +para4"
    alias "kk4c" "kkslot4; bind q kk3d; bind c +metab4; bind b +para4"
    alias "kk4d" "kkslot4; bind c +metab4; bind b +para4"
    alias "kkslot4" "slot4; bind 1 kk1d; bind 2 kk2d; bind 3 kk3d; bind 4 kk4d"

    alias "+metab" "slot3;wait;+attack"
    alias "-metab" "-attack;wait;slot1"

    alias "+metab2" "slot3;wait;+attack"
    alias "-metab2" "-attack;wait;slot2"

    alias "+metab3" "slot3;wait;+attack"
    alias "-metab3" "-attack;wait;slot3"

    alias "+metab4" "slot3;wait;+attack"
    alias "-metab4" "-attack;wait;slot4"

    alias "+para" "slot2;wait;+attack"
    alias "-para" "-attack;wait;slot1"

    alias "+para2" "slot2;wait;+attack"
    alias "-para2" "-attack;wait;slot2"

    alias "+para3" "slot2;wait;+attack"
    alias "-para3" "-attack;wait;slot3"

    alias "+para4" "slot2;wait;+attack"
    alias "-para4" "-attack;wait;slot4"

    This config makes it faster for the normal fade to switch weapons, his client side animations play faster (making it easier for the user to tell what attack he has), and he just has to hit q to toggle between blink and swipe, and hit c whenever he wants to metabolize once he hits two hives.

    Mousewheel up is for the tiny blinks to move around the map.
  • BeammeupBeammeup Join Date: 2005-01-15 Member: 35749Members
    I have only read the first 2 pages so far and will finish later but i wanted to go ahead and post now. First i wanna say this is excellent topic. Second about the fps thing i TOTALLY AGREE... i used to get about 70 fps usually when i faded and i was AWSOME godly at it say 40-0 regularly... now im averaging about say 30-40 fps and im an average of say 10 to 15 and 1 as fade now if u could maybe help low fps'ers then the fade skill will improve. Also id like to say that blink should be more influenced than it is by the strafe button. I think blink strafing will help a HELLA lot. Anyways just my humble comments thx for the time. -Beam
  • comradecomrade Join Date: 2003-11-30 Member: 23774Members
    edited March 2005
    <!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Mar 23 2005, 09:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Mar 23 2005, 09:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>At this point in the thread, there seems to be a consensus forming that the problem with intermediate fade usage stems from the psychological aspects of play, rather than any physical limitations of it. However, perhaps I have misinterpreted this.</b>

    Thoughts?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I would say that is correct, other than getting blink swipe faster, lowering adren usage and not getting stuck in maps.

    An integral part of fading is actual team communication (which is lacking on public servers). The fade has to know where the main threats are to counter them, after all and you don't want to end up flying into a node builder who has an hmg when you're on <150hp 0 armour.

    Another important aspect of fading is knowing how far you can push it when attacking marines and always having an escape plan. Before I go into attack marines I will know how long I can last for against them before I have to fly out again because of how many there are, how well they can aim and what weapons they have (again, communication) and how I am going to get out of the room.

    I have a very passive style of fading, almost like a lerk, I just harass the marines until they're either all dead or outside a hive, in which case they'll be distracted enough to not shoot me and I can take heavy damage because the hive is right behind me. Most of the time, just being there and <b>NOT DYING</b> is enough to hold the marines off. I guess I also like to know where every marine on the team is, so I scout a lot and **** the minimap.

    er, well yeah i don't know what to write next so good fading is basically down to a mixture of prediction of the marine team's movements and scouting, pre-planning each of your little skirmishes before you attack, communication and actual fading skills.




    ^i just tried that script and I don't notice a difference other than I don't normally use lastinv and the pressing a button to metabolize
  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
    Grendel and Dirm nailed it on the head really. Fading needs advanced situational awareness (so does the lerk, but the lerk can sit in the safety of a vent and gas all day) and newbies don't have that. Heck, some beginning clanners don't have that. I'm still learning myself. The fact is you have to know the game well to play Fade well, and I'm not sure what we can do to make intermediate players handle the Fade better besides making all players read some sort of Fade tutorial :-p

    There's no way we can make the Fade depend LESS on situational awareness without overpowering it.
  • SandstormSandstorm Join Date: 2003-09-25 Member: 21205Members
    Based on my experience, from most to least situational awareness required:

    At one Hive: Gorge, Lerk, Onos, Skulk, Fade.
    At two Hives: Gorge, Lerk, Skulk, Onos, Fade.
    At three Hives: Lerk, Gorge, Skulk, Fade, Onos.

    Fades have such high K:D ratios because they can actually survive getting shot by heavy weapons, and still make a clean get-away. The Onos can't really run away until Hive 3, and Lerks and Skulks just vaporize in front of heavy weapons. Most Gorges can't even fight off a Knife attack, though Web is pretty useful for escaping sometimes.
  • comradecomrade Join Date: 2003-11-30 Member: 23774Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Sandstorm+Mar 23 2005, 12:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sandstorm @ Mar 23 2005, 12:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Based on my experience, from most to least situational awareness required:

    At one Hive: Gorge, Lerk, Onos, Skulk, Fade.
    At two Hives: Gorge, Lerk, Skulk, Onos, Fade.
    At three Hives: Lerk, Gorge, Skulk, Fade, Onos.

    Fades have such high K:D ratios because they can actually survive getting shot by heavy weapons, and still make a clean get-away. The Onos can't really run away until Hive 3, and Lerks and Skulks just vaporize in front of heavy weapons. Most Gorges can't even fight off a Knife attack, though Web is pretty useful for escaping sometimes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    wowoww

    my list would be completely different =o

    1hive: skulk fade lerk gorge
    2hive: fade lerk onos skulk gorge
    3hive: fade lerk onos skulk gorge
  • InquisitiveIdiotInquisitiveIdiot Join Date: 2003-10-21 Member: 21854Members
    All of your "balance the fade" suggestions are ridiculous. You want to make it more newbie friendly by <i>reducing</i> it's hp and armor? What the hell!

    How about this: increase it's hp/armor/<b>swipe radius</b> to the point where newbies CAN three-swipe against two newbie shotgunners and win. Then reduce blink <i>speed</i> until clan play is balanced again. Newbies get a fade that doesn't die from one mistake. Clanners get a slower, tougher fade, more suitable for direct assaults but still far from a tank when fighting marines who can aim. Everyone wins, except the poor marines.
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